[ukb]

Since 2004 there has been an ongoing thread called the "Donkey line / tick mark hall of shame" which posts pictures of obtrusive tick marks left on problems. The practice is pretty widespread and clearly there is a divide between those who find it offensive in many ways and those who don't who may be oblivious to it being perceived as problematic. We thought a poll was in order but wanted to give the issue an airing before posting the poll up. We invited Dave one of the most outspoken critics of the practice to put across his point of view and get the ball rolling ...


Tickmarks - an emotive subject, and one that's hard to explain why it is we get so ruffled by them. But I'll have a go:

Why: Because they don't look good, it's not cool. As sharp distinct lines they stand out more than general chalk-on holds, they're typically at right-angles to natural features, so tend to stick out like a sore thumb. At a time when the number of climbers is increasing, and access problems at crags we once thought were untouchable are becoming more and more commonplace, we need to be minimising our use of chalk and visual impact, not drawing lines on the rock. We need to set a standard for the level of care we need to show our crags.

And what's worse than making the crag look shit, they make you look like a punter too. Don't go thinking that by rocking up at a boulder or route and covering it in tickmarks makes you look like a pro, because it doesn't. Nobody thinks you're the big man. It makes you look like someone who doesn't know how to climb, and need an idiot-arrow pointing to everything. Its basically admitting to the world that you have no self-respect, never mind respect for the rock or for other climbers.

"But wait a minute Dave, what if I brush them all off afterwards, isn't that OK?". Well for a moment lets forego the fact you'll still look like a chump whilst you're climbing with a thousand tickmarks, and get to the real problem, which is that you're a human being. We all are, and as such we are prone to fuckups, oversights and mistakes. And because of this you are likely to forget to brush them off. You might not forget every time, but I guarantee at some point you will forget and leave your boulder looking like a game of three-dimensional hangman.

The problem is that people tickmark, forget to brush them off, then someone else sees them and thinks that if someone else is doing it it's probably OK, so does it themselves. People see tickmarks in magazine photos and see the top-end doing it on come cutting edge route, so assumes its fair game on anything. People see tickmarks in indoor walls indicating exactly which bit of an inverted plywood polygon you're supposed to grab, and think its OK at the crag. Well it isn't OK and here is how its going to stop:

• Don't tickmark in the first place - that way you can guarantee you won't forget to brush it off. Reminder: if you can see the hold, it doesn't need tickmarking. Tickmarks are supposed to be for slapping to blind holds around aretes and the lips of roofs where you can't see where you're going and won't be in contact with the hold long enough to have a feel around. They are not to just indicate the best bit of a hold to save you from having to engage the brain cells that deal with memory. If you can't see the hold, get a friend to point to it. Get them to hold a brush-stick up if its a high hold. If you haven't got a friend, you're unlikely to make any by tickmarking anyway.
• Do it right - If you absolutely must use some indication of where the blind hold is, then use the smallest faintest tickmark you can get away with. Don't use a line, use a dot. Don't use a thick dot by crushing a golfball sized block of chalk on the rock, use a faint dab of powder. It need to be easily removed by brushing, so don't go squeezing chalk into the deep recesses in the grain of the rock cos that shit won't brush off. And make sure that you can reach to brush it off afterwards.
• Brush chalk off when you've finished - I can't stress enough how important this is. And not only brush of your tickmarks, brush off your chalk and everyone elses tickmarks too. Leave the boulder or route in a better state than when you found it - set a good example. If some idiots have left deep ground-in tickmarks, use a bit of spit on a toothbrush.
• Challenge bad behaviour - we British are bad at this, preferring to turn a blind eye to avoid confrontation, but tough shit, get stuck in there. If you see someone taking the piss, then have a word - even if they're someone famous. Chances are they haven't realised what a dick they look and will take you out for a drink later by way of a reward for showing them the light.
  
• Don't give tickmarking any positive publicity - that might sound a bit weird, but if people don't see it they won't do it. So if your mate does a hard problem and wants his photo in the magazine, tell him to make sure there's no tickmarks or you're not getting your camera out. Don't publish photos or videos of people using unacceptable tickmarks, it sets a bad example, even if you did brush them off afterwards.

[SA Chris]

Sums it up pretty well really, apart from the fact that it's almost impossible to completely remove a tickmark by brushing, so better to keep it to a minimum in the first place.

[yorkshireman]

yeah i agree with chris,well summed up and also on the removal of tickmarks.most of the time if i need to mark where a hold is i will use a strip of climbing tape as its far easier to remove afterwards.obviously it wont always stick but most times you have a good idea where the hold you are going for is so a tickmark shouldnt be necessary anyway but i dont mind people using them sparingly if they clean them off as well as they can afterwards.challenging the bad behaviour on here may get you some stick(i know) but tbh you owe it to the next person who comes to the problem who will blame you for them mess!!!

[shark]

most of the time if i need to mark where a hold is i will use a strip of climbing tape as its far easier to remove afterwards.obviously it wont always stick

 

[Will Hunt]

All very sensible. Good idea about the finger tape.

[erm, sam]

Good idea about the finger tape.

In my opinion the best plan is to train yourself to be better at hitting blind holds. Eg take a sighting of where to slap so you have a strong idea of how far up the arete etc the blind hold is. It is just an other skill like any other. You can train it.

[dave]

most of the time if i need to mark where a hold is i will use a strip of climbing tape as its far easier to remove afterwards.

And much more likely to get dropped or left at the crag. I really don't think people should be using tape for tickmarks, if people forget to deal with them in the same way they currently forget to deal with chalk then the litter consequences alone would be disastrous.

[cofe]

most of the time if i need to mark where a hold is i will use a strip of climbing tape as its far easier to remove afterwards.

And much more likely to get dropped or left at the crag. I really don't think people should be using tape for tickmarks, if people forget to deal with them in the same way they currently forget to deal with chalk then the litter consequences alone would be disastrous.

agreed. there's already enough climbing litter at crags.

[andy_e]

Tape is a nice idea, but it's very expensive and easy to drop or let blow away. As erm, sam says, use features already in place to aim for holds- distinctive pebbles, ripples in the rock and so on. Not only does it help keep unsightly tickmarks off, it familiarises you with the rock better (and you never know, you may even find a cheeky thumb sprag or toe scum or something!

[yorkshireman]

most of the time if i need to mark where a hold is i will use a strip of climbing tape as its far easier to remove afterwards.

And much more likely to get dropped or left at the crag. I really don't think people should be using tape for tickmarks, if people forget to deal with them in the same way they currently forget to deal with chalk then the litter consequences alone would be disastrous.

but surely these are the people who are likely to be leaving litter anyway?

tape isnt exactly expensive when your likely to use a 2cm piece to mark a hold unless your going to be needing meter long pieces in which case its not the right climb for you anyway.

anyway was just my 2p and a tip that i use that i find better than chalk marks if the tape will stick

[fried]

As Sam says, rock is covered in litchen, algae and other such marks, noone really needs to tick mark anything. But then again a lot of people seem to think it's acceptable to crap around rocks, litter around rocks. Some people even go out and chuck fridges in bushes in lay-byes. Unfortunately most stuff on here is just preaching to the converted.

Tick marks for footholds I almost don't get, tick marks for hand holds that are reachable from the ground.. erm?

There I've said it, Chalk marks are visually just as bad IMHO.

[Moo]

don't worry I've got a more far reaching solution. I'm going to start hanging round crags on a the weekend with a big sign saying 'ticketh and thou shalt be judged a cunt'.

[tim palmer]

To paraphrase the title of this thread, is the use of tick marks really that bad?
 
Provided they are fairly discreet and brushed off I don't really see the problem, the tick mark hall of shame thingy is quite amusing but I am not sure the topic requires this degree of rhetoric.  I concede foot long donkey marks on permadry crags i.e. wright's rock are annoying but rare in the uk, but  the chalk from peoples hands on the holds is far more of an eyesore than the ticks at that particular crag. 

The tape idea is ridiculous and pointless as if the tape is in the right place surely your half/wrist/forearm will simply drag it off, especially if the hold is round a corner or lip.  So I suspect anyone doing this actually does not understand why people tick holds.  Also the vast majority of ticks will get taken care of by the rain in good time, whereas tape won't.

As for the 'one should have better spacial awareness and memorise every undulation of the rock' argument is also kind of missing the point as ticking holds is often used for moves which you need to do dynamically so don't have time to spot the crease three inches in from the medium sized pebble.

Frankly these two points do sound like the cries of the armchair brigade.  I can honestly say I find using small bits of chalk helps me to get up stuff, and I don't see it does much harm provided you clean up after yourself in the same way you would pick up litter.

[Nigel Poustie]

I agree with tim palmer!
This is such a unimportant issue reguarding the impact of climbing on the countryside!
If you where really that bothered you would stop using chalk altogether,  using tick marks can be the differense between sucess and failure. At the end of the day most of it is wash off in the next rain fall.

[tomtom]

I'm mostly with Tim and Nigel too.. I cant really see the controversy.. I use tick marks so when I'm hurling for a hold so I know where to plonk my fingers... When I'm at extremisis I think it helps. Though to be honest a fingertip sized smear is usually fine - not a great big line!

I dont think leaving tickmarks is clever, and if you use them we should remove them. But I cant see anyone wanting to leave them there?? Does anyone want to have tickmarks left everywhere? Its not like climbers are going around drawing giant chalk cocks on the Matterhorn to piss off the farmer at the Cliff.. (for example) People forget to remove chalk, or are lazy - and they probably need reminding that they should clean off the marks when they leave... OK, there are some knobs around writing names in chalk etc.. but thats really pretty rare..

Here's a test. Lets say you left a one inch tickmark (Not huge - not caked, just a chalky line/smudge) on a problem at Plantation.. you get back to your car, and are just wheeling out of the car park when you suddenly remember you hadnt scrubbed off your tick mark....

Do you:
a. Curse, park back up and huff and puff back up the hill to scrub it off. (nb huffing and puffing based on my own lack of fitness )
b. Cruse and mutter at yourself for forgetting, feel a little guilty and promise to clean them or some others off next time in a kind of tickmark karma scheme - then drive off
c. Eh? F*ck that, I'm off for a pint. 

I'm a B...

[just another chris]

To paraphrase the title of this thread, is the use of tick marks really that bad?

From the evidence being presented on here, and from first hand experience I've got to say yes - it's really quite bad. 

 
Provided they are fairly discreet and brushed off I don't really see the problem

If that's all the problem was, then we wouldn't be here making a song and dance about it.  Lots of climbers don't seem to be brushing them off, which is an inexcusable disgrace.   

   I concede foot long donkey marks on permadry crags i.e. wright's rock are annoying but rare in the uk

Are you implying that foot long tick marks are fine on crags that get wet? Surely you don't think its fine to leave them there for the rain to wash them off?
And if anyone needs foot long tick marks, they should probably go to specsavers!

As for the 'one should have better spacial awareness and memorise every undulation of the rock' argument is also kind of missing the point as ticking holds is often used for moves which you need to do dynamically so don't have time to spot the crease three inches in from the medium sized pebble. s

You could try not using tick marks and maybe improve your spatial awarness. 

[dobbin]

Flippin eck. Have you lot all been reading the Daily Mail and getting worked up or something? Yes you should avoid making unnecessary marks, and yes, you should be brushing them off if you do need them and yes, we dont want the mass adoption of massive long ones but honestly - is this that much of a problem?

Just another Chris - you are being deliberately inflamatory. Its unnecessary.

When I did Lowrider I ticked up the toe hooks - you cant see em otherwise - and i'm not strong or talented enough (or with powers of mental recall) to be able to take the time to identify by sight where they where. Now, most of the time I was trying that problem, I remembered to brush them off again afterwards. There were times (it took ages) when I packed up and started walking out to remember I hadnt brushed them off. I got my bag out and did my best to clean them off. There were also times when I realised I hadnt brushed them off and I was back at the car. Did I fuck as like go back up there and brush them off. Whenever I next went up there they werent there, so was this is the work of the brush fairy, or did the elements remove my marks?

I agree that tickmarks propagate tick marks, and that young lads visiting italy or switzerland will come away having seen tick marks on hard problems and think that its cool. But, its like going to the pub in a rash vest, or taping up cos you think it looks cool. It marks you out as a dweeb.

If you need tape - wear it. If you need a mark - make one. Just brush it off after you and pick up your shit when you have been done. Tick marks are like litter. As long as you clean it up and contain it then I dont see the problem.

[ducko]

everything in moderation, some times there handy but theres no need for big fat lines that you can see from outer space!

[dobbin]

Yes. Ducko - I agree with you. You may have called the Peak the Peaks once, but on this - you are right!

[ducko]

i can once again walk the crags of great britain with my head held high 

[SA Chris]

i can once again walk the crags of great britain with my head held high

All the crags? Including those in Scotlands and Wale?

[just another chris]

Apologies for being inflamatory Dobbin.   There's nothing wrong with using indiscrete tick marks which we try to remember to brush off afterwards.  However, on a few occasions this year I've come across some real eyesores, where every single hold on a problem has been ticked and its wound me up a bit.  Didn't mean to take it out on Tim 

[yorkshireman]

The tape idea is ridiculous and pointless as if the tape is in the right place surely your half/wrist/forearm will simply drag it off, especially if the hold is round a corner or lip.  So I suspect anyone doing this actually does not understand why people tick holds.  Also the vast majority of ticks will get taken care of by the rain in good time, whereas tape won't.

ooooo im sorry,i must be superhuman then because it works ok for me most of the time and i understand why people tick holds,i do it myself on occasions when tape doesnt work and i even remember to remove it afterwards.its not rocket science,if i can make it work i dont see why other would have major problems
anyway,regardless of the above the problem is always going to be people not bothering to clean up their mess that are the problem,although some people think it is a problem and some dont,and thats life

[Moo]

well if everyone else is gonna make a serious point then I'm going to as well. I think what Dave is talking about here is really a symptom of a wider problem. At the moment for a variety of reasons the population of climbers in the uk is increasing rapidly. Personally I'd say a lot of the new blood is coming from the explosion of bouldering walls around the UK. I don't think that these walls are a bad thing obviously they are brilliant and thousands of people enjoy them.

Unfortunately the massive influx of climbers are not well educated in the basics of crag etiquette, so whatever goes on indoors (ticking, jumping off without thinking about the landing, bad spotting and not brushing holds) gets transferred to the crag.

I used to think that bouldering dvd's like this were a bit daft

http://www.integrity7.com/Integrity7/index.php?Itemid=55&id=55&option=com_content&view=article

but now I reckon we'd be better off if they were compulsory viewing

[ducko]

i can once again walk the crags of great britain with my head held high

All the crags? Including those in Scotlands and Wale?

97.25% of all crags making it the minority

[dave]

Whenever I next went up there they werent there, so was this is the work of the brush fairy, or did the elements remove my marks?

Banks will chin you if he hears you calling him a fairy.

[SA Chris]

Unfortunately the massive influx of climbers are not well educated in the basics of crag etiquette, so whatever goes on indoors (ticking, jumping off without thinking about the landing, bad spotting and not brushing holds) gets transferred to the crag.

Have any of the dedicated centres got Si Panton's "10 Bouldering Commandments" on display anywhere?

[psychomansam]

Maybe we should get involved with helping the BMC produce some extra guidance/information on some of these issues. Would it be worth trying puttting
information on gates/fences etc at popular bouldering spots (plantation/cromlech boulders)?


Personally I haven't found the need for chalk since i started using resin 


By the way, i reckon this is officially the most like 'the other channel' this forum has ever been

[tomtom]

By the way, i reckon this is officially the most like 'the other channel' this forum has ever been

Yup. You're spot on. To try and add some topical purile balance...

[Three Nine]

I agree with tim palmer!
This is such a unimportant issue reguarding the impact of climbing on the countryside!
If you where really that bothered you would stop using chalk altogether,  using tick marks can be the differense between sucess and failure. At the end of the day most of it is wash off in the next rain fall.

I agree with this totally. Reminds me of the in-situ draws thread. I enjoyed the comic first post though 

[Three Nine]

By the way, i reckon this is officially the most like 'the other channel' this forum has ever been

Agree with this, though I wasn't sure if Dave's post was supposed to be ironic...  Or might have been on his period?! I dunno. I am too shit a climber not to use tick marks and I find it very helpful when a route or problem is already ticked. A bit like when the draws are in. 

[SA Chris]

Are you in favour of in-situ draws then? You've never mentioned it before now.

[Three Nine]

Are you in favour of in-situ draws then? You've never mentioned it before now.

 

I also remember being tickled pink by Sharples having chalked '1','2','3','4' on the undercuts on Monsterossity at WCJ so he wouldn't forget his sequence!   

[tomtom]

Are you in favour of in-situ draws then? You've never mentioned it before now.

excellent

I think people who leave in situ draws in should be shot. But I'd gladly shake the hand and buy a pint for anyone who bolts a route at Stanage.

[Andy B]

I think whether or not you should use tickmarks and whether or not you should brush them off are two separate debates. Combining them into one here has blurred the issue.

In my opinion, most boulders will use a tick mark at some point because, like chalk, it makes things easier, and like other chalk it is responsible crag use to make an effort to brush and, when appropriate, wash off what you can when you leave. I don't personally have an issue with the use of tick marks if they are removed afterwards, but in my experience they are much more obvious, and more obviously man made, than other chalk, and, when pressed in thick on the rock, do not just wash off in the rain. 

Everybody I know thinks that they are ugly. Whether you personally care or not, other people do. Even if I didn't have an issue with the aesthetics of tick marks being left, if I knew that others did, I would still take the few seconds it needs to brush them off. Given that boulderers spend most of their time at the crags resting anyway, why not kill a few minutes each session by removing ticks, if only to improve other peoples experiences.

[andy_e]

You could be forgiven, to an untrained eye, for thinking a blob of chalk on a hold is some lichen or something, but when it's a tick-mark, it's obviously not. There's some boys going around Brimham at the moment (a very touristy place) who are caking holds in chalk and drawing pointless tick-marks all over the place and it looks a disgrace. I'm worried that the National Trust might take action if it continues. Obviously, I use chalk, but I keep it to a bare minimum by using liquid chalk (which leaves little residue on the rock), never applying chalk directly to the rock and trying to remove as much as possible without the use of excessive brushing. The problem would be much less if people took the same approach. To say the issue is unimportant is to be ignorant of the impact of climbing on the environment. Everything that climbers do has an impact, and if we're being responsible, we can minimise this impact to prolong access to our crags.

[SA Chris]

^ what he said.

[andy_e]

But I'd gladly shake the hand and buy a pint for anyone who bolts a route at Stanage.

 

[yorkshireman]

There's some boys going around Brimham at the moment (a very touristy place) who are caking holds in chalk and drawing pointless tick-marks all over the place and it looks a disgrace.

i was there this morning,someone has drawn a chalk cock under the hole in the world problem and cleft buttress was caked in chalk.did my best to get most of it off and its likely going to rain tomorrow so hopefully most will get washed off,well not the chalk cock under the roof but i suppose im being silly thinking this is a problem

[GCW]

That cock was there when I went weeks ago, I tried in vain to remove it all although it was originally etched in with masses of chalk.

[andy_e]

There were a million ticks on Pair in a Cubicle last week too.

[GCW]

Why?  How will they help on PIAC?

[andy_e]

There was one six-incher pointing to the foothold under the undercut and lots of other various lines pointing to various smears, and another six-incher going to the good hold in the first break.

[north_country_boy]

i was there this morning,someone has drawn a chalk cock

There was one six-incher pointing to the foothold under the undercut and lots of other various lines pointing to various smears, and another six-incher going to the good hold in the first break.

Crikey, its definitely getting beyond a joke when people are ticking holds up with cocks...

[Wipey Why]

i was there this morning,someone has drawn a chalk cock

There was one six-incher pointing to the foothold under the undercut and lots of other various lines pointing to various smears, and another six-incher going to the good hold in the first break.

Crikey, its definitely getting beyond a joke when people are ticking holds up with cocks...

Who ticks holds with a chalk cock? Honestly!

[tomtom]

Who ticks holds with a chalk cock? Honestly!

I use my hand and a lump of chalk personally...

[andy_e]

[rehab21]

I'm a bit non-plussed with the arguments for tick marks.

I'm assuming that tick marks are generally used when you are working a problem and it's all getting a bit frustrating. If this is the case and all movements need to be practised and wired in, then why the need for the tick? Just learn the problem.

Tbh, though, I don't have an issue with unobtrusive tick marks, but we can all help keep things looking pretty and natural by being sensible and tidying up after ourselves. If you find yourself in the Donkey  Hall of Fame, then brush up on your ethics - you need to.

In an attempt to elicit genuine justification for tick marking, what was the last problem where you finished it and thought "I wouldn't have climbed that without the tick mark. It was essential"?

Jim

[webbo]

All of them.

[SA Chris]

I think you might have senility as an excuse

[webbo]

As never mind remembering which is the best bit of the hold to go for,remembering which hand to go with.Or even who am I and whats this white stuff for.

[yorkshireman]

There were a million ticks on Pair in a Cubicle last week too.

there were a few there when i got there,they arent there anymore
yeah the chalk cock was a bit ingrained in and wouldnt come off,think it needs rubbing harder