[Bubba]

Seems a few places are offering courses these days "Font technique week", "Font with Ben Moon", etc, etc.

Personally, I can't see me ever doing it - not sure why but I guess I like the battle of working stuff out and developing techniques myself (plus I know my weak point is really strength, not technique anyway)....though the next time I go snowboarding I'll definitely get some instruction coz I know I've got some bad techniques that need ironing out....

Have you ever considered it? Why? Why not? If somebody enabled you to climb 2 grades harder in exchange for 500 notes, is it really worth it?

[dave]

i've always had mixed feelings about stuff like this.

I mean from a personal perspective I woulnd't pay £300 or whatever (+ ferry, travel etc) just to climb with soem sponsored over-tanned posers for a week. however some people are wiling to, so fair dos - everyone has the right to make a living.

also it seem there are some coaches that you'd imagine have a unique product/style t offer (dawes - how to wirebrush orange lines), and those which dont.

one thing that always truck me as wierd is that all the testimonials for these say "i'd never lead more than F6a before and on this trip i lead F6c, and its all down to XXX's coaching", but it struck me that if someone who'd never been abroad sportclimbing before went to on their own accord for a week they'd have improved by that amount anyway maybe.

it does alarm me however that you see these "climbing on grit" courses etc. Now it'll sound horribly condesending and elitist, but my view of climbing (not just bouldering) is that it something that you get into through mates, learn from going out and doing it, reading books on ropework etc make sure you're safe. what i'm sayig is that the kind of people who get into climbing like this are the kind of people with some kind of aptitude for it. whereas the kind of people who don't have an aptitude for it and need to go on courses to be taught "how to climb grit" or even can't be arse to learn through trail and error maybe shouldn't be in it. of course it easy for me to say that and it probably sounds awful, but i hope everyone understands what i'm getting at.

personally i'd rather spend £300 on 8 pairs of rockboots, or several font trips.

[erm, sam]

I would get coaching if I could afford it. I am not so sure about a weeks trip or what have you, might be like going climbing with a teacher. Course, it might also just be wicked, improving every day.. Having somebody point out the weaknesses in ones climbing that you are just oblivious to, for example, would be great. I imagine you would improve easily as much as if you spent several months sweating at the wall.
Especially I would love to have a few coaching with Jonny Dawes (how the fuck do you spell Johnny). I think his insights into ideas about movement  are fascinating.

[dobbin]

I would go on a Font trip with Ben Moon. There might be a moment when we were alone together. When noone else could hear his screams.

But seriously... I'd not pay for coaching at the hands of the Gresham or similar, theres something odd about it all.

Like Dave says its something you get into with your mates and through trial and error. I started by getting dragged up death slabs in Pexhill with a saggy panted old hero.

I think the demographic of climbers is changing. When I worked at the Floundry the car park was full of camper vans and clapped out bangers covered in climbing stickers, now its Range rover vogues and Mercs! So a richer set of people are coming climbing, and demanding an introduction over a weekend delivered by 'experts' - rather than an apprenticeship hard won over a number of years.

Grimer got it right in the Mountain Onion - PlanetNoMates.com...

[Bubba]

I think the demographic of climbers is changing. When I worked at the Floundry the car park was full of camper vans and clapped out bangers covered in climbing stickers, now its Range rover vogues and Mercs! So a richer set of people are coming climbing, and demanding an introduction over a weekend delivered by 'experts' - rather than an apprenticeship hard won over a number of years.

Very true.

[dave]

now its Range rover vogues and Mercs!

aren't most of those Jerry's?

[squeek]

I wouldn't go on them personally, but I can see they might be useful and good for some people.  Eg, someone is really into climbing and trains a bit, but only climbs at weekends with people who enjoy it, but are happy going up VS's/V2s all the time and don't strive for the hard grades.  Something like these training weeks might help them push themselves because no-one else is and give them a confidence boost.

Each to their own.

[MrBlue]

this is the first time i've posted on here, so hello...and please don't flame me...:

i wouldn't mind having a few more training sessions with the dawes - i had one a coupla years ago (quite reasonable i thought at £25 for a day). they were interesting in that his applied teaching differed from the usual take on training sessions - my technique improved greatly, as did my balance and co-ordination. unfortunately due to injuries and ops i've sort of forgotten everything, so it would be good to have a 'reminder' of what i learnt.

[Bubba]

this is the first time i've posted on here, so hello...and please don't flame me...:

Right!!

 :wink:

[Fiend]

I wouldn't for bouldering....it's a simpler game and more fun just to play around and work things out. And I'm simultaneously not fussed about progressing with bouldering, and progressing more than I expected anyway (despite....or because?....of the former).

I'd consider it for routes though, some tactics/plans/ideas/concepts/etc could be useful for pushing things a bit. Not with Ben Moon though, I'm sure he cries like a little girl on HVS cracks. Neil G, probably. I did do a Dawes class a couple of years ago and it was very interesting. A fine blend of the usual Dawes madness along with several ideas that were new to me and actually very useful and applicable. I'd do that again...

[T.H.]

I'm not convinced by all these coaching weekends, masterclasses etc.  Obvioussly the people running them are very good climbers, but that doesn't necessarily make them good coaches.

I know climbing is a relatively youthful sport, but virtually every other sport has regulated coaching qualifications, whereas climbing just has the SPA (aka how not to kill people).

What's really needed is for the national governing body, which shouldn't be the BMC anymore (I think most would agree that your average climber isn't a mountaineer) to sit down with these top climbers, and top coaches from other countries and other sports and agree upon standard climbing coaching qualifications.  They should cover technique, strength training, nutrition etc.  Just like virtually every other sport.

I think the standard of climbing would rocket if there were well trained people providing training advice, rather than your average muppet on rocktalk.

[Bonjoy]

I think UKB should start a remote coatching service. Clients send in video of themselves haplessly flailing about, said video is then posted on the site, whereupon an eminent panel of experts (us) get to give out pearls of coaching wisdom for cash. Sweeet.

[Bonjoy]

Celebrity coaching isn't such a new thing BTW. My old man had Joe Brown as an instructor on a Whitehall (outdoor centre in Buxton) climbing trip to Skye. He remembers Joe being an impatient tutor. On one occasion, when Pa was struggling to reach Joe's belay on a multi-pitch, Joe lowered a loop of rope down and insisted dad tie some of his cigs on.

[dave]

They should cover technique, strength training, nutrition etc.  Just like virtually every other sport.

my only problem with that is i think when climbing becomes mearly a sport then i don't wanna be a climber anymore (seems at time in euroland its getting that way, chipped routes, comps, bolting cracklines etc) as it indicates for me a loss of everything that i hold dear to climbing. For me climbing is a pursuit, a lifestyle. If i just wanted to be into a sport i wouldn't be climbing, i'd be out playing badminton 24-7.

[Bubba]

I know exactly what you're saying but the boundaries between sport/lifestyle are tricky to define, and I think it comes down to how you see your participation.

For some people playing badminton is just a sport, but there will be those who eat, sleep and breath it to the extent that it is their lifestyle.

I remember being at a party years ago (when all I ever did was climb) where there were a group of male hockey players talking about their game in exactly the way you see climbers at it in the pub. At the time I thought they were sad, but now I realise there was no difference between them and us.

[dave]

maybe lifestyle was a bad choice of words. i mean it so much more than trying to run the 100m in a fastest time, or trying to clean and jerk  a certain weight.

[Pantontino]

I think the climbing demographic has changed, but then again, so has society as a whole. Once upon a time there was a fairly clear working class/middle class split, but nowadays most people I know with working class roots have become middle class, and the excluded/poor and criminal classes have become more entrenched.

This is bound to be reflected in climbing culture. People have got more expendable income, and full time skint climbers are very rare.

Cue: old git nostalgia story:

"...in my day no-one had cars and we all climbed on the dole for as long as we could...blah, blah, blah"

In Llanberis at the moment, the only person I know who climbs full time is Pete Robins. I suppose there is Johnny, but then he does make a living of sorts from the very coaching courses that are being discussed.

Anyway, my final point is that although these coaching courses have a high profile, they are still only taken up by a minute % of the climbing population.

The vast majority of climbers wouldn't dream of paying for coaching.

[dave k]

I would not pay a Brit to teach me how to climb in Font. But a Bleausard now that a different matter all together!

Although actually they would just rip my climbing to pieces and totally frustrate me. I remember the looks of discust  off locals when I have fought my way up some bleau classics.

[Jess]

dont see any point in paying for coaching - i find that if i get out and climb with people who are better then me i learn loads. save myself paying Andy Earl £16 when i can get it for free and go outside.

[a dense loner]

I would not pay a Brit to teach me how to climb in Font. But a Bleausard now that a different matter all together

nor would i pay a bleausard to teach me how to climb on the grit. they only look good cos they live there. i don't go around wi a piece of carpet cos on the whole the ground is muddier, etc, etc n i would look even more of a dick. look at http bloc. how hard do them guys climb in font, 8a+? they come here n do jerrys arete at cratcliffe. not that there's owt wrong wi that, it's just not 8a+. it's exactly the same for them comin here as it is for us goin there.
i think arnold gave the best advice. don't ask tom platz how he trains his legs, cos he'd have legs like that whatever he did. in the same way don't ask ben moon how he trains. (not sure he said the bit about ben moon tho).

[account_inactive]

I think that you are right the demographics of climbing has changed considerable over the last 10 years.  I started climbing in trainers for the 1st 2 years (bouldering I might add!) and learnt the rest from mates and text books.  
I live in London and with the lack of available rock,  climbing in gyms is just a way of life.  A huge percentage of people climbing at these walls approach climbing the same way as they probably tried tai-chi or yoga.  I work as a coach at a big bank on fleet street.  Most of the people here are very switched on and can learn the basics in 20 mins.  After that I spend the rest of the time coaching on a one on one basis which is very unusual.  Some of my client are climbing upto Fr7a over the last year.  To be honest these people can afford to pay for that sort of service unlike the rest of the climbing community.  As you say get a mate to show you.  So whats the difference between paying for a coach in ski-ing to climbing?  I think that its mainly to do with the ethos in the sport.  Climbers are generally tight as arseholes.  But if you catch people when they first enter the sport and treat it the same as tennis, sk-ing etc why should they not pay for the privelage?
The majority of work that instructors receive is generally beginners courses.  Thats not the reason why I got into teaching.  I've got a sport science degree and will be going back for a masters at the end of this year.  In any other sport I would be paid a fortune as a coach but not climbing!  Thats not really the point, I'm not in climbing to make loadsa money but the contrast between sports makes you think.  
Bringing new people into the sport is a very contenscious issue with our limited resources and as instructors we have a duty to educate people in the outdoors.  Saying that if my clients never want to go outside thats fine with me and I would never push them to do so.

AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGG rant over

[Jim]

The biggest difference between skiing (or boarding) and climbing (IMO) is with climbing, everybody can do some aspect of it (even if its just scrambling) so its easy to get on the ladder, wheras with skiing there's a giant hurdle at the start to get over which is why so many people have skiing tuition.

[account_inactive]

Ok fair point, but say tennis then

[a dense loner]

all sports r simple until u want to become half decent at them. it's easy to progress in every sport. gettin your arse out of gear n goin over your own personal hurdle is the hard bit. how many times do we hear so n so was a natural, n if only they applied themselves etc.
wot ure talkin about is indoor climbin. personally i think the people that climb f7a would have climbed it without your help, this is not meant to sound rude or be a slight on your coaching abilities. nor is climbin rocket science. n u say they r switched on n get the basics quick, wot basics tie harness, figure of eight, move upwards.

[a dense loner]

ps i would not get coaching. well i would not pay to be coached anyway. the person who can't identify their own weakness is a fool. i know i'm as stiff as a board, but i'll sort that out in a few minutes. n i'm really inflexible as well. have known this for long time but can't be arsed puttin the stretchin time in. then again i'm a climber not a gymnast.

[Johnny Brown]

So what could I learn from the current crop of 'rock-celeb tutors'?

1. How to stand on a mat and curse in a camp voice, inbetween taking ages to figure out a simple sequence.

2. How to wear unfeasibly tight t-shirts with unfeasibly large logos whilst 'having it' in non-stop party stylee.

3. How to justify outrageous grades, by rendering your critics bored speechless, with a judicious mix of mathematics and a charisma bypass.

4. How to climb like a frog with CJD.

But seriously... anyone beyond a certain point is only going to benefit from learning technique. Only Dawes is really going to teach you anything in this area. Most of the others are just strong - and at the end of the day that just comes down to putting the time in down the wall - no thanks.

[dave]

cheers, thats the funniest post i've read in a long time.

and if this don't make you laugh/cringe then nothing will:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=10602

[a dense loner]

it's ok sayin that if ure already a weapons grade cat   . wotever that may be?

[Bonjoy]

So what could I learn from the current crop of 'rock-celeb tutors'?

1. How to stand on a mat and curse in a camp voice, inbetween taking ages to figure out a simple sequence.

2. How to wear unfeasibly tight t-shirts with unfeasibly large logos whilst 'having it' in non-stop party stylee.

3. How to justify outrageous grades, by rendering your critics bored speechless, with a judicious mix of mathematics and a charisma bypass.

4. How to climb like a frog with CJD.

But seriously... anyone beyond a certain point is only going to benefit from learning technique. Only Dawes is really going to teach you anything in this area. Most of the others are just strong - and at the end of the day that just comes down to putting the time in down the wall - no thanks.

   The first two are easy, the third i have an idea, the fourth could be one of a few.

[a dense loner]

dave, uve made my day!  

[Bonjoy]

:worthy:

[dave]

maybe they should have amasterclass called "how to look tanned and intense on easy problems"

http://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/search.html?text=adrian+berry
http://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/search.html?text=gresham

[Bubba]

You're only jealous of those hunky bodies  :wink:

[erm, sam]

How many people watching? That looks boring as fuck. I think a few hours in a bouldering session would be interesting and fun. But a whole week watching a baldy climb lame routes would be terrible.
Oh, just realised I have crossed the line into armchair commentator territory. What do I know what they got up to, maybe they found it fullfilling and rewarding etc.
I guess I think bouldering is sufficiently technique focused to benefit more from coaching than route climbing, when just doing a load of intervals for a month would ramp your grade loads..

[Johnny Brown]

But you get to hang with your hero!! Those guys are sooo coool!

[a dense loner]

in the first photo is he being spotted by mulder n scully. i want to believe!

[Bonjoy]

What exactly is the difference between demoing something and climbing it? Is it something like vogue-ing?

[Doylo]

They should become a pop act, could be the new Right Said Fred maybe!

[a dense loner]

gaskins shud have somethin to say about their tans, i reckon.

[Paz]

I wouldn't do a course as I don't regard the tutors as any better than me, just a bit more naturally talented and stronger cos they've spent 10 maybe 20 years longer training.  They're just climbers same as I am.

[account_inactive]

Dense loner

Ok you're probably right these people that I train would have climbed 7a if I wasn't there but that's not the point.  As with all sport science things there is no real right or wrong, just quicker ways to get to the same point.  It would most definitely taken longer than 6 months.  Plus I do this for a living and can spot talent a mile off, these guys are not what you would class as being top class climber potential.  Unlike the 2 of the british juniors that I have been involved in training.
Some people don't have the time to get to know better climber to gain useful information.  Come on just think about it, punter goes to stanage and tries to get beta of some wanna be pro and told to fuck right off.  As much as you would like to think that information is shared between climbers you are wrong.  In France that kind of information is shared so that the whole community improves not just individuals.  
Coaching will in the end help the standard of climbers whether you want it or not.  Plus just because someone is better that you does put them in a better position to train.  A large number of coachs are not as good as their atheletes.  
NOTE: Get tan and shave head, pose at Stanage and demo routes

[Bonjoy]

I can't speak for anyone else but in my experience (16 years of), i've never come across any climber who would tell a novice to 'fuck off' if they were aproached for assistance, infact the vast majority would be more than happy to give what help they could.

[nik at work]

Have to say that my experience of bouldering at Stanage (or anywhere else for that matter) is wildly different to that. Whenever I have asked for beta/help/info at a crag I have always been given info/guidance/a guided tour etc etc and I have always reciprocated when asked (although I certainly don't class myself as world class...). It doesn't seem to matter who you ask in my experience from unknowm punter, through shy and quiet beast to rock god superstar, they are all helpful.

As for the original question. Would I pay for coaching in climbing? No, it is a hobby and I do it for fun, not to get to the next grade so coaching would be wasted on me. If I was sponsored/competing maybe I would look for coaching as career development I suppose.

[a dense loner]

thought u said u'd been trainin these people for a yr tho, not 6 mths. i agree the idea is to get better faster. i'm not sayin the way forward isn't coachin. just that i wouldn't pay for it.
when u say u do this for a livin n can spot talent a mile off. i wud like to think that i do it for a livin as wel, i just don't get paid. anybody can see potential.
when u go on about stanage n punters bein told to fuck off. is this from experience or myth? personally i would never tell anyone to fuck off if they asked for beta, i would simply give them the beta. oh n i have been to stanage quite a bit. think it gets an undeserved bad press.  
NOTE i have a shaved head, pose at stanage n demo routes if asked, i just don't have a tan  :wink:

[account_inactive]

I think it depends who you are and who you ask.  I have never been treated like that but I do have friend that have.  I think that sort of attitude is more likely to happen at the wall.  Sorry should have got my facts straight.
Sometimes its hard to forget that for most people getting better is not the main thing in their climbing.  I have a huge problem with assuming that better=harder.  Especially as I'm not climbing at the moment!