[heelhookofglory]

I read this on the other channel recently and it got me thinking...

At the risk of being controversial, proper sport climbing really kicks in at 7a+/7b - i.e. if that is your limit, EVERYTHING needs to be right for you to get up the route.

When is hard, actually hard? In terms of bouldering. So far I've managed to drag my ass up some Font 6C/+ ish boulder problems without having to train certain specifics. It seems to me that now I'm working Font 7As that it's suddenly stepped up a game. Is this psychological or is it the case that 7A and up, everything has to be right and that you have to start training certain weaknesses in your abilities as a climber? Surely 6C+ to 7A shouldn't be any different than 6A to 6A+ should it?

Maybe I'm just a weak punter who's suddenly realised that I need more skill 

[lukeyboy]

Surely it's all relative to your ability. If you're an 8B crusher then you can probably get up a 7B with a duff sequence in bad conditions with a few mistakes thrown in. Whereas if 7B is your absolute limit, everything has to go perfectly to do it. I don't think the level itself matters (generally speaking... obviously no-one is going to get up a 8A horror slab in shitty conditions) but how near it is to your personal limit.

But of course to become an 8B crusher in the first place most people have to do some pretty specific training...

[heelhookofglory]

Surely it's all relative to your ability.

You're right, of course. I think.

To me, though, it just feels like the step up to 7A is harder than previous step-ups. Is it only me that feels this is true? 

[tomtom]

Surely it's all relative to your ability.

You're right, of course. I think.

To me, though, it just feels like the step up to 7A is harder than previous step-ups. Is it only me that feels this is true? 

From my experience, trad climbing is full of plateaus. e.g. moving from HVS to E's seems to be a big step, similarly E3 > E4 seems to be a jump (in my experience anyway)..

But I think the font grading system is pretty linear.. I've steadily progressed up the 6's and (on a couple of occasions) up to 7B(+).. there are of course 7A's that will be easier for you than others, but thats the nature of the beast..

The beauty of climbing is that for some folk 6A's may be just as nails as 8B+'s are for UberWads..

[Nibile]

I personally think that the gaps between grades remain the same. no one has ever stated that the gaps increase getting to the high end of the scale. so I think that the gap between a 6a and a 6b is the same that there is between an 8a and an 8b, in absolute terms.
I think that we perceive the gaps as increasing, when we progress, because the higher the grade, the more we are at our limit, the harder it becomes to find that plus in power, precision, technique, mind skills, that makes us climb that gap.
moreover, the more we are at our limit, the more we have to search for that specific problem that will suit all of our strong points, and that is easier said than done.

[Muenchener]

I think "hard" is just the grade just above what you can currently do.

I can boulder 6A / 6A+ in a handful of goes; 6B is really, really hard unless somebody shows me how to do it. Similarly with routes: I have - according to my spreadsheet - about a 50% chance of onsighting 6b; 6b+ feels really, really hard unless it is in a style that suits me perfectly (cruxy, good rests, not pumpy)

I suppose a key difference is that I can reasonably suppose that if I keep training reasonably reguarly, then next year I will be having the same experiences a grade or two further up the scale; if I were talking about 8A+ to 8B I would have far less confidence in that.

[heelhookofglory]

...because the higher the grade, the more we are at our limit, the harder it becomes to find that plus in power, precision, technique, mind skills, that makes us climb that gap.

In general terms i.e. human ability or in personal terms i.e. our own ability?

If it's the former then this may hint at the gaps getting larger? Or, maybe the difference between an 8B and an 8B+ gets smaller because the difference is that actually completing and not completing gets finer and finer? So it takes an increased amount of effort over previous efforts to get to the next level i.e. not really linear?

I might be talking complete bollocks here by the way and I'm not even sure I understand myself 

[fried]

I think "hard" is just the grade just above what you can currently do.

I can boulder 6A / 6A+ in a handful of goes; 6B is really, really hard unless somebody shows me how to do it.

I'm about the same but at 5C, but funnily enough 5B is easy. I imagine climbing is always going to be like that.

[Pebblespanker]

Good question but there may also be another factor or two involved ... 

Once you approach you personal limit (in my case 6C+ ish) there is always a required level of dedication and sacrifice to get better and as you progress towards your maximum it may start to feel like a law of diminishing returns i.e. you can plateau.

For example a dedicated pie-murderer faces a hard choice between giving up the meat related products they love and progressing a grade or two, once beer gets factored in too you really start to sort the wheat from the chaff. Add into that a need to do specific training rather than fcuk about with your mates when you go to the wall\crag and in some peoples view that may be too much to give up for the sake of a poxy boulder problem; hence in some cases rather than admit they are too weak\fat\lazy and the excuse the problem is 'too hard' is given. There is no such thing as a hard problem, you just haven't trained long enough or hard enough Please note I am not categorizing you as a fat weak pie murderer like me.

For me there is no gap really they have always felt nails for me at or above my limit for the simple reason I am an old fat weak punter at my (current) physical limit and I need to train more which I am doing in the vain hope I might get up a 7A this year/decade

Cheers, H (a fellow weak (old) punter)

[Nibile]

I agree, but there's another option:
you cut off the junk food, the alcohol, you train, you sleep well... and still you don't climb the damn thing!!!

[heelhookofglory]

There is no such thing as a hard problem, you just haven't trained long enough or hard enough

I like that 

[mark s]

I've always thought the jump from E5 to 6 is where you really need to be on the game.

[Jim]

or 7b+ to 7c

[gremlin]

The beauty of climbing is that for some folk 6A's may be just as nails as 8B+'s are for UberWads..

 

[Stubbs]

When is hard, actually hard?

When the G gave it more than 8B

[slackline]

V8+ 

[SA Chris]

Well 6c's not that hard anymore.....

[TobyD]

I've always thought the jump from E5 to 6 is where you really need to be on the game.

I think there is some truth in this, perhaps not in absolute terms, but E5s have often (or usually) been routinely onsighted by lots of people for years; for whatever reason, the pool of people wandering up piles of E6s is very much smaller, therefore the routes tend to be less known about, less chalked / cleaned, and more psycological baggage is attached to trying to onsight them due to this etc etc

Other than this, i think that it always seems hardest to progress at your limit, and it's easy to get intimidated by numbers. It took me over 4 years from my first 8a to climb numerically harder, and then i did 3 8a+s, an 8b, and several other 8as in the space of 2 months. Now i feel as though the amount of work it will take to climb harder is astronomical!

[Steamboat Stello]

I've always thought the jump from E5 to 6 is where you really need to be on the game.

or 7b+ to 7c

Funnily enough this is exactly the point I am at! Tend to agree with the idea that you reach a point where the amount of training/neglecting other life stuff required to improve becomes the limiting factors. I guess where this point is depends on natural ability but presumably there will be a roughly average level? Thats not going to stop me trying though!