[account_inactive]

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=471256

Jasper will love the v-grade bit. Is this not an I'll timed guide after such a great update of the vertebrate version?

[Baron]

Mental.

[ducko]

for god sake cant someone update the north wales guide book! one peak guide is enough!

[dave]

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=471256

Jasper will love the v-grade bit. Is this not an I'll timed guide after such a great update of the vertebrate version?

Cynical cash-in attempt? At least its being written by Mr Peak Bouldering himself, so no worries there.

[slackline]

Annyone's free to write a guide to anywhere, non?

Good luck they'll need to pull something pretty special out of the bag to compete with Cofe, Ru & jonjon's most recent offering.

[dave]

Annyone's free to write a guide to anywhere, non?

yeah but...

Good luck they'll need to pull something pretty special out of the bag to compete with Cofe, Ru & jonjon's most recent offering.

exactly.

No doubt they've done their sums and know that if they can knock it out quickly and cheaply enough they'll make a few bob from the ukc/rockfax fanbois and fontgrade-refuseniks. At least most of the hard and time consuming research work has just been done for them..... (did I say that?).

[dobbin]

Cynical cash-in attempt? At least its being written by Mr Peak Bouldering himself, so no worries there.

Whoa! Chris Craggs is writing it? get in!

At least a Berry guide will have more generous grades. How much is V24 in font money?

[tomtom]

Cynical cash-in attempt? At least its being written by Mr Peak Bouldering himself, so no worries there.

Whoa! Chris Craggs is writing it? get in!

At least a Berry guide will have more generous grades. How much is V24 in font money?

6B+

[Grubes]

Is this not an I'll timed guide after such a great update of the vertebrate version?

No its perfect
They don't need to do any work they can get the new peak guide that has been well research copy the grades and convert with ther patented Rockfax grade conversion chart.
Take some photos of the boulders.
Buy pictures off people who have them on there computer but not used in the other guide.
Find the worst possible and least inspiring picture of a guy bouldering and stick it on the front cover

Guide can be thrown together in a few weeks. sorted!
No thanks given to the guys who did the hard work and put out a detailed guide obviously

[lagerstarfish]

Cynical cash-in attempt? At least its being written by Mr Peak Bouldering himself, so no worries there.

Whoa! Chris Craggs is writing it? get in!

At least a Berry guide will have more generous grades. How much is V24 in font money?

6B+

i heard it was slightly easier than (Welford 7B)-

[Jaspersharpe]

I welcome thoughts on grades (we'll be using V grades),

I really doubt you would actually.

and having a group of mixed abilities trying the problems copying the Vertebrate guide should be a good way of getting a consensus on the grades as they've done shitloads of work doing just that.

This is shit on every level.

Wonder what they're going to do about all the 7B+s?

[Baron]

V8+

[Jaspersharpe]

I was hoping for more of a 7B+/7C/V8/9/7c+/8a type cave grade for every problem. Including Pinches Wall.

[Doylo]

There's parallels with Rockfax's plans to do a North Wales select guide i.e. unecessary as a brilliant guide already exists.  I guess they know they can make money out of it

[lagerstarfish]

It wouldn't take much to convert the Rockfax format into an app - with shared ticklists, ascent details, grade opinions etc

I wonder if this will happen?

[Jaspersharpe]

After extensive and painstaking research I've recently finished photocopying completed a guide to all the 7th and 8th grade problems in Fontainebleau, complete with topos, maps and directions to all the areas. Available in ring binder or "load of sheets in a plastic wallet folder" formats at £10 a throw.

[Serpico]

Is this not an I'll timed guide after such a great update of the vertebrate version?

No its perfect
They don't need to do any work they can get the new peak guide that has been well research copy the grades and convert with ther patented Rockfax grade conversion chart.
Take some photos of the boulders.
Buy pictures off people who have them on there computer but not used in the other guide.
Find the worst possible and least inspiring picture of a guy bouldering and stick it on the front cover

Guide can be thrown together in a few weeks. sorted!
No thanks given to the guys who did the hard work and put out a detailed guide obviously

Given that Rockfax had published a Peak bouldering guide before Vertebrate Graphics they could've made the same unfounded accusations themselves.
I doubt very much that it'll be 'thrown together' in a few weeks, I suspect it'll be over a year until it's on the shelves, and it will be selling to a very different market than the VG guide - casual boulderers that don't understand V grades eg: the london market.

[dave]

Given that Rockfax had published a Peak bouldering guide before Vertebrate Graphics they could've made the same unfounded accusations themselves.

The rockfax guide came out when '97, '98? Then there was a massive explosion in the popularity of bouldering and a shit load of development, then the Vert guide came out in 2005, a whole 7 or 8 years later. Hardly the same situation as now.

[slackline]

Aren't all guide book authors "Standing on the shoulders of giants" to some extent (although some giants are clearly bigger than others).

No one's criticising VG for their offering of selected  Peak routes, which might be considered encroaching on Rockfax' Eastern/Western Grit guides, which themselves can't beat the classic BMC offering "On Peak Rock" as a select guide to the area, or the brilliant definitive guides.

Consequences of a free market, blah, blah blah.

Little point in moaning about it, better to vote with your wallet (and encourage others to do so, so I guess this thread might help in with that)

[dave]

Aren't all guide book authors "Standing on the shoulders of giants" to some extent (although some giants are clearly bigger than others).

There's a difference between standing on shoulders and treading heels.

I imagine if Vertibrate had waded in with a selective guidebook of classic grit routes called "Eastern Gritstone" just a few months after rockfax brought out "Eastern Grit" there might have been eyebrows raised though. (Well, there would have been if the rockfax guide had actually been any good.)

[dobbin]

treading on heels? how do you tread on someone's heels? toes I can understand, but this takes street jive talk to a new level

[slackline]

I guess if VG feel hard done by they'll be able to get an injunction or sue for infringement of copyright/intellectual property.

Perhaps the best thing would be not to give any more column inches to something no one here seems keen on as there is apparently no such thing as bad advertising.

[Jaspersharpe]

Or we could just take the piss like we usually do.

[dave]

treading on heels? how do you tread on someone's heels? toes I can understand, but this takes street jive talk to a new level

Word, imagine you're trying to walk very very closely behind someone (might help you visualise this better if its the Ben Moon).

[Johnny Brown]

The rockfax guide came out when '97, '98?

Not long after the OTE guides by Al Williams and Jason Myers...

I guess if VG feel hard done by they'll be able to get an injunction or sue for infringement of copyright/intellectual property

No they won't.

I think its well established now that a) database law as relates to aggregation of climbing route descriptions has not been tested in court, and b) none of the current parties involved will ever be able to afford to do so.

So the current free-for-all is likely to continue. All guides will inevitably compile information from other sources. Whether an arbitrary line in the sand has been crossed whilst doing so will remain an intractable question. I think the policy to follow when contributing to or buying guides is to ensure they are not out of favour with locals.

[Baron]

Hope they call it 'Peaks Bouldering'

[Stubbs]

Mid august is an interesting time to start trying to judge the grade of grit problems!

[slackline]

Mid august is an interesting time to start trying to judge the grade of grit problems!

Maybe they'll start with lime problems?

[jimmykay]

I look forward to a grade debate on the UKC forums about Kudos Wall grades.

I wonder what grade they'll give Weedkiller....

[dobbin]

Word, imagine you're trying to walk very very closely behind someone (might help you visualise this better if its the Ben Moon).

Mmm, the Ben Moon! He make me do a sex wee

[Jim]

I wonder what grade they'll give Weedkiller....

I'm going to vote 8b

[Paul B]

you mean B8 right?

[account_inactive]

I thinks it's essential that guides are made by locals or people who have adopted an area (as a local), like in the case of the 7&8's guide.  I heard about the Rockfax guide being developed over a year and half ago and spoke to Rupert about it as a heads-up.  Obviously for one reason or another (probably Adrian working on the French guides) they didn't get their act together and in the mean time Vertebrate have produced an excellent update.

Anyone should and is allowed to produce a guide book and people should vote with their wallets.  I for one will never purchase a Rockfax guide to Peak district bouldering or any other Rockfax publication. Out interest the original Peak bouldering Rockfax was written by Allen Williams, no stranger to the Peak (or bouldering for that matter) and an excellent reason to purchase a guide.

All of this has been done to death before.  Check out these threads over the years.....

http://www.camptocamp.org/forums/viewtopic.php?id=144276
http://8a.nu/forum/ViewForumThread.aspx?ObjectId=9591&ObjectClass=CLS_UserNewsComment&CountryCode=GLOBAL

[Paul B]

I thinks it's essential that guides are made by locals or people who have adopted an area (as a local), like in the case of the 7&8's guide.

Whilst its a nice thought the fact is (and you'll discover this shortly), that local topo's can often be both hard to find and woeful at the same time. Do you want to spend the first day of a week long trip trying to track down somewhere that sells the guide (later to find out its out of print) or pick up the widely available select from your local climbing store?

Thats not to say I'm a huge fan of rockfax. I met some people in Rodellar who were very vocal with their thoughts on how much care and attention Ceuse was given for instance and I wasn't awestruck by the accuracy of the Cote D'Azur Calanques section.

With regards to information, its hard to get past the fact that UKC/Rockfax currently have the best logbook system and in truth a fairly elegant way of recording/gathering information and opinions on routes/problems for future guidebook publications.

Thats said I just can't see the logic in persuing a Peak bouldering guide at this time with some glaring (albeit currently W.I.P) holes in their publication list (i.e. the limestone). [TBH in preference I'd love to see a BMC definitive in this area].

Also, with the new wave of BMC offerings and great publications from the likes of VB and Groundup (like the CC pembroke guides too) I'm amazed that the rockfax formula can still compete.

[account_inactive]

Local topos can often be found on the net for free (especially is Spain where guides are kept in bars) and it doesn't take a genius to find them.  I agree, Rockfax has a place for the convenience climber and it's up to each person to decide which book to buy.  Online databases are the way forward but they should be hosted by nonprofit organisations like peakbouldering.info but when bolts are paid for and areas developed and maintained then it's a question of ethics.

[RopeBoy]

Hi ,

I bumped into Adrian Berry at Bell Hagg a few weeks back while he was checking out the crag and he said he been working on it for a while, just finishing off some French guides first. To be fair he did climb all the problems and wasn't just doing it sat at home cribbing off previous aforementioned guides.

I suppose the timing is a bit odd but as mentioned it will probably appeal to a different set of climber/boulderer.

J 

[Teaboy]

 it will probably appeal to a different set of climber/boulderer.

I'm not sure why this argument still has currency, there is nothing about the VB guide that makes it inaccessible to any group of climbers, there are hundreds of easy problems.

[Offwidth]

Hi ,

I suppose the timing is a bit odd but as mentioned it will probably appeal to a different set of climber/boulderer.

J 

The timing is maybe ideal for those that see competition as a major benefit to guidebook production (I think the case for this is usually oversold, especially in a honeypot area like the peak). I'm glad to see Adrian is climbing everthing but I'm not so sure how much this helps invigorate the main area of market difference: the many extra lesser punter problems that the BMC have (but with added routes and several volumes) and VG don't; I know the ingredients well enough to know we could have michelin star fare or a dogs dinner; I guess we'll have to wait and taste.

I must admit I've enjoyed all the peak bouldering guides so far; Alan W's original is probably still my fave.

[Big Dave]

Strange timing I must admit, but I'll probably end up buying it anyway, to add to the collection started with the OTE guides I got all those years ago!

[RopeBoy]

[/quote]

I'm not sure why this argument still has currency, there is nothing about the VB guide that makes it inaccessible to any group of climbers, there are hundreds of easy problems.
[/quote]

I don't mean there's a greater selection of easier problems (or harder ones come to that) just a different set of climbers.

I too will probably buy it as I enjoy guide books and collect them.

J :-)