[slackline]

Other long route ideas: If you have fixed anchors ... Use an adjustable leash such as a Purcell Prusik in 6mm or 7mm cord: cheaper and easier to adjust than a daisy chain and you can use the cord as emergency abseil sling.  Setting up a comfortably adjusted belay should take about 15 seconds with this combination.

I'm interested: what do you see as the advantage of using a purcell prusik (or other cow's tail style system) over just clove hitching in with the climbing rope(s)?

My guess would be its easier to adjust? 

[duncan]

I'm interested: what do you see as the advantage of using a purcell prusik (or other cow's tail style system) over just clove hitching in with the climbing rope(s)?

I’ve only recently started using them.  I’d climbed with American climbers who were keen on their “personal anchor systems” and had been a bit doubtful but a trip to the Dolomites convinced me they have some merit on multi-pitch routes with fixed anchors, hanging belays and abseil descents. 

You need something to clip anchors when abseiling and it is useful to be able to quickly and easily clip in at a hanging belay when handing over gear etc. if you are switching leads.  You could just use a sling but a PP is adjustable and a load limiter, a dyneema sling is probably best avoided.

The advantages of an adjustable cows-tail over a rope are speed and adjustability.  A cow's tail is very quick to set up and take down. A clove hitch can be a little hard to undo if you have been hanging from it for half an hour.  A PP is fairly easy to adjust under load.  These are niceties not crucial advantages.  The disadvantages are the lack of range (not a problem with a hanging belay), that it is something else to go wrong (a valid point), and that it’s another bit of kit to carry and get in the way (but you will need something for the abseil).

[slackline]

I'm interested: what do you see as the advantage of using a purcell prusik (or other cow's tail style system) over just clove hitching in with the climbing rope(s)?

I’ve only recently started using them.  I’d climbed with American climbers who were keen on their “personal anchor systems” and had been a bit doubtful but a trip to the Dolomites convinced me they have some merit on multi-pitch routes with fixed anchors, hanging belays and abseil descents. 

You need something to clip anchors when abseiling and it is useful to be able to quickly and easily clip in at a hanging belay when handing over gear etc. if you are switching leads.  You could just use a sling but a PP is adjustable and a load limiter, a dyneema sling is probably best avoided.

The advantages of an adjustable cows-tail over a rope are speed and adjustability.  A cow's tail is very quick to set up and take down. A clove hitch can be a little hard to undo if you have been hanging from it for half an hour.  A PP is fairly easy to adjust under load.  These are niceties not crucial advantages.  The disadvantages are the lack of range (not a problem with a hanging belay), that it is something else to go wrong (a valid point), and that it’s another bit of kit to carry and get in the way (but you will need something for the abseil).

Never heard of Purcell Prusik, but rather than use daisy-chains (risk of pocket failure) or dynamically loading slings (viz. the DMM link) I've a Metolius PAS which is very easy to adjust the length when clipping in at a belay or abseil (I guess a case could be made for potentially dynamically loading of slings in this, but the point is you use/adjust it so that there isn't any slack and its statically loaded, and certainly on abseils a second independent piece was placed/clipped immediately, if not before).

Worked well for us out in the Dolomites.

[Paul B]

surely the common sense thing to take away from the DMM video is just not to climb above the anchors with nylon or dyneema (the only difference being in the former the engery will be dissipated through yourself), and Slackers you'd be surprised at the forces generated in just those little loops doing exactly the same. A friend had been testing something similar on a Via Ferrata kit.

[slackline]

Aye, not disputing the forces generated and never climb above the anchors as the first thing when leaving belay...place a piece of gear (but then y'all know that anyway).

[Muenchener]

For abbing I just use a shortish sling with a screwgate as a cow's tail. I prefer nylon to dyneema, and try to make sure I always keep it weighted. Am fully ready to concede that a purcell prusik would be better for that particular job though.

For belaying I'm not so sure. I generally bring the second up with a reverso in auto mode, but am not yet sufficiently German to belay a leader directly off the anchor. I always move the plate onto my belay loop for that - at which point with a purcell prusik there would be two strands of 7mm between us and oblivion. I don't think I would like that, especially during that awkward Factor Two spell prior to the first peg or bolt. Or am I missing something?

(Is this turning into the gear forum on rockclimbing.com? No, because nobody has been viciously rude to anybody yet)

[account_inactive]

Has no one has mentioned these?

[lagerstarfish]

Other long route ideas: If you have fixed anchors, use an guide belay device so the leader can drink, eat, change clothes etc. as s/he is belaying. 

A magic plate (or modern version of one like Duncan linked) makes bringing your second up feel much easier, both mentally and physically

[TobyD]

Has no one has mentioned these?

i have used one of those metolius ones a lot; they're pretty decent, however Yates make a massively superior one, if you can get hold of it (order from USA i imagine)

[Paul B]

has anybody got experience of Vibram finger type shoes for this use (I have to say they make me feel silly just looking)?

Ok so I tried some of these on today (  )

They certainly are light, way lighter than Daescents it seems but there are a few issues, firstly I felt ridiculous, secondly climbers toe (where your little toe has been mashed up for years) meant my little toe didn't actually go into its 'finger', and finally the price (£105! - I can almost buy a pair of rockboots for that).

[TobyD]

i wondered about the decent possibilities of these too: but concluded that they will probably get a lot cheaper when the barefoot running craze wears off a bit  - probably as soon as slightly overweight runners start getting stress fractures from wearing these things! (possibly) I have used crocs quite a bit for descents - light, though they also look stupid, and aren't exactly great from scrambly stuff. But they are cheap, and do protect your feet.

[Paul B]

you can get significantly cheaper chinese clones (not so suprising really, and didn't Vibram recently squash a factory copying its equipment or did I dream that?).

Another thing I forgot to mention is they were quite hard to get on, like trying to get a tight fitting pair of gloves onto your feet. Throw in a bit of approach sweat and things could get tricky.

[Paul B]

For anyone else looking for bags



and



both look good it just depends on how much there'll be to carry. I'd love to be able to get away with the smaller one but I'm not sure. As a lot of the camelbak range is designed to allow access to jersey pockets they finish quite high up the back so they don't get in the way of a chalk bag!

[Paul B]

Looks like approach shoes arent really an issue anymore:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=473072

(access tunnels are closed as of Mon until January!)

[Paul B]

and again I'm talking to myself however if anyone else find this via search this has a wealth of Verdon info and topos!

By the way, the Yates and Metolius adjustable dasies talked about earlier are all bodyweight only, Edelrid do a fully rated version.


Does anyone happen to know what this is:



there's a black and white picture of it in the guide but no captions!

[Paul B]

Some more info on the Purcell Prussik. It looks promising.

[Johnny Brown]

Any reason why it has to be adjustable?

[Paul B]

I just found last time that it was never the right length and I always ended up being pretty uncomfortable. Does your opinion differ?

[Johnny Brown]

Well in practice I've always just used a daisy.

If I couldn't trust myself not to unexpectedly climb above the anchors and then fall off, I'd use a tied rope cowstail - lower impact force and has a far more respectable ultimate breaking strain.

Whilst the FF1 graph on your Prusik link looks respectable, the FF1.5 and 2 do not. You get random failures at forces no higher than those on the supposedly successful tests. If I was going to leap up and down on a belay, I'd rather be injured by a slightly higher impact force with a sling than play russian roulette with a prusik.

[Paul B]

If I couldn't trust myself not to unexpectedly climb above the anchors and then fall off, I'd use a tied rope cowstail - lower impact force and has a far more respectable ultimate breaking strain.

Although my previous runs of bad luck would suggest otherwise, I'm not a lemming. The whole thread is based around wanting to be more efficient/quicker on bigger stuff and fiddling around with this setup last night it looks a lot better than the daisy I've used in the past (that was too short some of the time, and too long others) and its a shed load cheaper than the adjustable versions produced by edelrid (and not as daft as the metolius offering, where the hell does this go when not in use?).

...but I might just buy a 2x tele-converter?

[slackline]

(and not as daft as the metolius offering, where the hell does this go when not in use?).

Optionally shortening length by clipping 2nd/3rd loop from end and it then goes from belay loop under nuts/cam on your thigh to clip onto a loop at the back.

[Johnny Brown]

it looks a lot better than the daisy I've used in the past (that was too short some of the time, and too long others

Doesn't sound much like a normal daisy. They have loads of sewn loops so you just clip in whichever works best.



The Metolius adjustable ones are good and little bigger than a normal one, or a load of accessory cord.

goes from belay loop under nuts/cam on your thigh to clip onto a loop at the back.

Which is pretty standard. I can't see any other option being much different.

[Paul B]

this is revenge for the tele-converter, right?

[El Mocho]

from belay loop under nuts/cock to clip onto a loop at the back.

This is the way I have seen true wads do it as it doesn't get in the way of your nuts and cams, I could never bring myself to do it though.

I have always used the rope to tie in to belays - can adjust to any length, v.short to v.long (sitting on ledges etc), is super strong, only takes seconds to set up, isn't an extra bit of kit to get in the way etc and then just use one of the slings from climbing on your harness if you do any abbing.

[Johnny Brown]

Ditto, though I'm guessing Paul and Nat won't always be swinging leads which makes it more of a faff?