[TobyD]

The question is whether leaving draws in contributes to a general feeling of littering the crags.
To be honest I never felt that strongly about the odd route with the draws left in but if thats now moving towards a more general trend I would definitely prefer to see it stopped both from a personal asthetic positon and from the perspective of the more general impression the climbing community gives.

This sounds like a pretty balanced, sensible view Ian; i think i pretty much agree. I sometimes leave draws (though not often) and use ones left by others (which is ethically the same thing isn't it really?) In the past, it hasn't bothered me in the least except in the odd case where you get a rotting draw blocking a bolt, which you would like to clip with a decent draw on an onsight, and can't.

If in situ draws pose a genuine concern to others, and impact on issues of access, of course we should all back down and take them out. I just slightly feel that everyone is getting a bit overexcited about how much other user groups are bothered by, or indeed notice, them.

[Three Nine]

I just slightly feel that everyone is getting a bit overexcited about how much other user groups are bothered by, or indeed notice, them.

For real! Jasper - what the fuck?

[Three Nine]

ps. neutral karma!!  and nice to be wadded by my good chum Dylan 

[Davo]

I have been reading this thread with a fair amount of interest as I do quite a bit of sport climbing at most of the venues mentioned (although mostly Kilnsey).

My view (based on only my own opinion!) is that for crags such as Malham and Cheedale where the landowners/managers have stated that they don't like draws being left in place then obviously people (e.g. me) shouldn't leave them in place when working a project. Thus access is preserved and good relations with the landowner etc... maintained.

At other crags where this isn't the case with the land owner/manager then I think the issue isn't so cut and dried. My view is very similar to that of IanP and TobyD. At a crag such as Kilnsey where most people (the vast majority) walking underneath the crag are climbers I don't see an issue with leaving draws in place. Most non-climbers who look at Kilnsey do so from the road and are hardly likely to see the draws in place. I had a good look the other day from down the road and from the layby underneath the crag and to be honest I couldn't actually see any fixed gear. Yes you can see it from directly underneath the crag but I still don't find it visually offensive or consider it litter. Obviously if the landowner/manager has a problem or someone can give a clear example of access at kilnsey specifically being endangered by draws on routes such as Urgent Action or True North then I am all for the draws coming down.

Personally I tend only rarely to leave draws in place but this simply because I am worried that someone will nick them. I have recently left some draws in Ecstasy (I just left a load of mine as extenders on the ones already in place), I also left some at the top of Bullitt. I did this simply to make my own life easier the next time I went up the routes in question. Obviously i could have stripped them at the end of my session but as long as access is not being endangered I don't see a problem here. The other day i went on Urgent Action and I was glad to have the draws in place, mainly because it saved me carrying any and also meant that I could bail at any stage and not worry about retrieving them.

As we (well actually me!) are on the subject of access at kilnsey in my opinion by far the biggest issue is parking. People parking underneath the crag in that layby undoubtedly cause the local residents and farmer much more hassle than a few fixed draws. This despite a sign clearly saying do not park here!

Anyway all the above is simply my opinion and was just a way of me avoiding heading back out to the yard to carry on digging and patioing!

Dave

[abarro81]

Personally I find single in-situ biners uglier, and more like rubbish, than a line of draws; especially if the draws are all nice and matching and the single krab is like the horrible ugly one on RnP at the moment. There were 2 krabs in monumental, plus single ones in jug jockey, roof warrior, 42, R'n'P, Snatch plus 2 in LATB yesterday. I don't even know why the one in Snatch was there since it was on the headwall section which goes in a straight line up a vertical wall...

[account_inactive]

ps. neutral karma!!  and nice to be wadded by my good chum Dylan 

No I did that by mistake.  I still think your're an idiot. For the record I've been vocal about removing the draws from Mecca.  I'm more than happy to put draws in from the ground up.  I'm out of the country at the moment but will be happy to take a spanner down the Tor as soon as I get back.  The last time they were removed (by Ted I think), Paul Reeve and Keith Sharples made a song and dance about putting them back in (I could be wrong about that but they did go back in)

edit: you're not your

[T_B]

I did this simply to make my own life easier the next time I went up the routes in question. Obviously i could have stripped them at the end of my session but as long as access is not being endangered I don't see a problem here. The other day i went on Urgent Action and I was glad to have the draws in place, mainly because it saved me carrying any and also meant that I could bail at any stage and not worry about retrieving them.

This thread is going nowhere, but I thought I would highlight that.

I'm lost for words.

[Bonjoy]

Perma-draws were not deemed necessary on these routes 5-10 years ago. What's changed?
I've done a fair number of the routes mentioned at Kilnsey and don't recall putting the draws in or the removal at the end of the session being a game changer in any way. It's just laziness. Ok it makes flashing/onsighting harder - tough, that's how it alway has been, it is not sufficient justification for the practice.
TBH the issue didn't bother me when it was the odd route here and there but it now sounds like things are getting silly and we are as well outlawing the practice BEFORE we have access problems, rather than waiting for them to happen.
The point of having single biners on routes is to leave the minimum kit insitu to allow routes to be safely and practically stripped. They are the much lesser of two evils. It is beyond me how anyone can say that one krab is more of an eyesore than 10-20 krabs attached to brightly coloured fabric and dangling in space! Yes some, such as the green one on Snatch are unsightly and I agree ought to go.
From a selfish climber point of view it's worth considering that ultimately if we push the perma-draw thing to the point where we are forced to negotiate access on sensitive crags, then we might be put in a position where we have to do without these single biners, which would actually be a major ballache.

[Johnny Brown]

As an access rep, I think this thread has been really encouraging. Generally, folk are in favour of self-policing - that's great. Those that previously didn't give the issue a second thought will now be aware there is more at stake. With any issue like this, its not about forcing 100% compliance on people, its about getting awareness up. The odd route having a few draws in over the odd night isn't going to cause big problems at most crags. Routes becoming routinely fully equipped is. That's all, be sensible about it.

[Davo]

Digging up the yard has lost its appeal again so...

TB: I don't understand your point. I make no claims to be a saint, just a fairly regular sport climber who is at times lazy and does appreciate draws in routes for that reason. If at any stage I heard a good reason that draws threatened access at any crag where I left draws (pretty much only Kilnsey) then I would stop immediately.

Bonjoy: I don't believe the draws are necessary, I just appreciate them. I think there is a difference there, it may be subtle but there is a difference. I am more than happy to stick my own draws in and strip them at the end of the day. In fact like most people this is exactly what I do most of the time. It is just that i don't see that there is a huge problem with the draws in Urgent Action and True North at the moment. I haven't heard any reason why they might endanger access at kilnsey (I am being specific here.). I really don't think things are out of hand at Kilnsey and haven't spoken top anyone at the crag this year who thinks it is (and I do speak to most people) admittedly i have hardly been canvassing opinions with a formal questionnaire!

To be clear I am only talking about crags where access is not an issue and as I have said earlier the landowner/manager has not stated that they don't want clips left in. This is obviously the case at Cheedale and Malham and therefore we need to respect their wishes.

Again in my opinion the biggest issue is parking...

Dylan: Unfortunately I have had to punter you back for puntering me... I thought it was okay to have different opinions on the forum and express them reasonably without getting puntered. I haven't said that I think anyone is an idiot for holding a different view to me and if someone (e.g. you) can give me a clear reason as to why draws left in Urgent Action or True North endanger access at kilnsey then I am more than happy to change my mind.

Okay back to digging up the yard...

Dave

[account_inactive]

Dylan: Unfortunately I have had to punter you back for puntering me... I thought it was okay to have different opinions on the forum and express them reasonably without getting puntered. I haven't said that I think anyone is an idiot for holding a different view to me and if someone (e.g. you) can give me a clear reason as to why draws left in Urgent Action or True North endanger access at kilnsey then I am more than happy to change my mind.

Okay back to digging up the yard...

Dave

I puntered you for not realising that your attitude was lazy, not for having a differing opinion.  Does that stick clip of yours not get close enough to the bolts? What good reason is there for turning a crag into an indoor wall for the sake of your onsight or bone idleness? Even if there wasn't access issues would it not be better to leave as little trace as possible when we use outdoor resources? Do we not try to brush chalk off holds and pick up other peoples rubbish? Obviously there are times when krabs get left in but should this not be the exception rather than the rule?

[Three Nine]

Its called irony Dylan. You're an idiot.

[Three Nine]

For the record y'all, I really like it when clips are in stuff. It bothers me not a whit if there's a shit ton of draws in crags where its not pissing off the landowners. I dont find it unsightly. What's wrong with the draws in Mecca?

[Davo]

Hmmm....

Dylan: I agree with all the stuff about trying to take all of our stuff home with us and picking up people's rubbish etc..., I try to rub of chalk/tick marks... I think if you read my message again it is quite evident that I know I am being lazy, I just haven't seen that it endangers access at Kilnsey...

If it did then I would have a problem with draws left in place there and you still haven't given a clear reason as to why it might. I am being specific to Kilnsey here as I really don't climb in the peak enough to have an opinion.

I am aware that there is a contradiction to my wanting to leave as little trace as possible yet being happy to see draws left in place. Still we all use chalk and are happy to drill bolts into the rock, so there you go...

Anyway, I have decided to take the high road and not punter you back for yet again puntering me!! Ooh get me, I feel all righteous!

On another note I may be down at Cheedale on Saturday and if your draws happened to be in PowerPlant I would not be unhappy (as long as you strip them at the end of the day)!

Dave

Actually, just looked at weather forecast and it now looks unlikely I shall be heading down to the Cornice, doh!

[Jaspersharpe]

Jasper - what the fuck?

I was implying that you are too stupid to understand the argument and that (because of that) there's little or no point in people trying to reason with you. You're doing a really good job of proving my point. How ironic?

It's just a shame you wont take a minute to actually read the sensible things people like bonjoy and JB are saying instead of taking offence, chucking insults about and tit for tat puntering people. Which isn't really very helpful.

Seems everyone else on this thread is at least willing to attempt to be constructive and listen to one another's points of view.

Or in other words "you can't educate pork". 

[Three Nine]

I'm neither stupid, nor uneducated (do you really want to take it there?). I am possibly (most would say certainly) a twat, and perhaps I shouldn't rise to Dylan's persistent unpleasentness. Nonetheless, and I appreciate you may find this difficult to understand, I have a different point of view from you.

[rodma]

I just haven't seen that it endangers access at Kilnsey...If it did then I would have a problem with draws left in place there

I like that attitude It's incredibly healthy.

Probably best to wait until there is a problem, and then spend weeks and years lobbying and grovelling to get access back to normal, rather than just taking your shit home.

[slackline]

I have a different point of view from you.

Yes, clearly you do, but the point of a discussion is to listen to and at least try and understand others points of view* which, despite your allusions to being educated (and lets not start willy waving as its futile), you seem to be failing to do.

Trying to equate the early forceful placement of a railway track between Buxton and Bakewell (in an era when people didn't even consider rock climbing, after all the track was built in the early to mid 1800's, check the date of Haskett-Smiths ascent of Napes Needle, let alone the value of nature!) and the legacy that we are now left with has absolutely no bearing on the issue of whether draws should be left in routes in an area that is now privately owned and an SSSI (Site of Special Scientific Interest).




* Caveat - Something I endeavor to do but may not always succeed at.

[chris_j_s]

I like that attitude It's incredibly healthy.

Probably best to wait until there is a problem, and then spend weeks and years lobbying and grovelling to get access back to normal, rather than just taking your shit home.

  I was writing the same thing until I saw your post.

Shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted? 

[RichK]

I did this simply to make my own life easier the next time I went up the routes in question. Obviously i could have stripped them at the end of my session but as long as access is not being endangered I don't see a problem here. The other day i went on Urgent Action and I was glad to have the draws in place, mainly because it saved me carrying any and also meant that I could bail at any stage and not worry about retrieving them.

This thread is going nowhere, but I thought I would highlight that.

I'm lost for words.

 

I'm not sure its possible to talk about this anymore,  I'll amend that..... it is possible, but we will continue to go round in circles bleating on ad infinitum

We all just need to walk away & do the right thing. That is give serious thought to leaving any in situ gear on routes.



 

[Three Nine]

Slackline (keeping this as non-eristic as possible) I was being flippant about Chee Dale, but the issue is broader than Cheedale and other crags with specific access issues in the UK. I dont think its especially lazy to leave draws in at crags, generally speaking. Some people share this point of view. Dylan's contention that this turns a crag into an outdoor climbing wall could very well be extended to bolted crags in general.

[Three Nine]

Rich K - you are of course right, but some of us are bored at work and have nothing better than to debate (if that's the right word) on internet forums.

[north_country_boy]

I like that attitude It's incredibly healthy.

Probably best to wait until there is a problem, and then spend weeks and years lobbying and grovelling to get access back to normal, rather than just taking your shit home.

  I agree. The fact that this is being discussed on a public forum probably means it has got out of hand, and is in danger of risking access sooner than people realise, even at crags like Kilnsey where there are no perceived access problems (parking aside). Why open a  that we can potentially keep tightly shut?

Most people from time to time will leave draws in if they are intending on visiting again soon, I am no exception, and essentially it is born from convenience (lazy if you want to be cynical). Regardless of your opinion of whether they are unsightly or not, it is the views of landowners, the NP and other users which matter and if leaving draws in may risk creating an access issue then surely its worth removing them?

This thread shouldn't be about canvassing opinion of whats insightly and what is not, and at present it isn't achieving anything, other than stirring ill feeling between people. I think everyone is in agreement that the most important thing is maintaining access, therefore let common sense prevail and take your shit home. I for one would much rather bust a gut stripping my draws after every visit than risk losing the opportunity all together.

(I stripped the old draws from Mandela last year, which were then tested to destruction at Wild Country, I suspect that if anyone saw what the seemingly new looking (been up there 2years?) Dyneeema and Nylon tapes broke at they would think again before ever clipping an insitu draw.....)

[slackline]

Flippancy doesn't engender understanding, particularly in the black & white setting of communicating via the internet where body language and intonation are lost.

This thread split from the Chee Dale conditions thread because there were draws left in routes at Cheedale.  It quickly took a sharp tangent towards wider issue of draws being left in routes anywhere.  The two are being nicely muddled in the discussion.

Perhaps this fork needs forking again into one that deals with the specific issues pertaining to Cheedale (and I get the impression that there are very few who think leaving draws in areas where there are already access issues is permissible, no matter how much of an inconvenience it might be) and a separate one focused on the wider issue of the potentially negative impact leaving draws in routes might have.

[lagerstarfish]

(I stripped the old draws from Mandela last year, which were then tested to destruction at Wild Country, I suspect that if anyone saw what the seemingly new looking (been up there 2years?) Dyneeema and Nylon tapes broke at they would think again before ever clipping an insitu draw.....)

... any specific info on this?

At what force did they break?