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Leaving draws in routes and situ draws (split from Chee Dale conditions thread) (Read 105820 times)

Paul B

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Indeed, but I don't think the way to solve that issue is saying that no-one should leave draws in anywhere.

Once again, I thought that was the general consensus in the UK and personally I'm struggling to think of any crags where it could be deemed acceptable. WCJ Cornice is one of the few as its hidden from the public. This currently has a mix of draws left all over it and (IMO) is a bit of a mess.

The North Buttress was mentioned earlier but I recall one of the Kilnsey guides (the green Rockfax I think) making a big point about NOT leaving draws or ropes in overnight? The other thing is it sets a precedent, if you leave your draws in Urgent action, why shouldn't the person on Comedy leave theirs in too? Whist we're at it we could save time by leaving the warmup equipped too etc. Before you know it you'll have the situation I saw in Austria where literally, faces are fully equipped (Monkey Island, Niederthai). That will have an impact.

shark

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It is dead handy having all the situ draws and long slings for stripping and working on the left side of Raven Tor and I was very much in favour of keeping them there but this topic is making me wonder whether the pre-emptive good mannered thing to do is to strip them all irrespective of the fact that there aren't access issues and we can "get away with it"  :-\

Paul B

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the fact someone keeps removing a couple of them and leaving them at floor level shows a difference in opinion of how 'useful' they are.

Teaboy

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Indeed, but I don't think the way to solve that issue is saying that no-one should leave draws in anywhere. Saying no leaving draws in at crags with sensitive access, or crags where lots of people walk right next to it or whatever makes sense, and people are more likely to listen to that IMO.

The problem with that argument is that quite often you don't know how sensitive things are until it's too late. If we wait until some landowner has raised an objection before deciding not leave clips in we, as climbers, are already on the back foot.

Doylo

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Its not true that leaving draws in anywhere is a bad idea.  It's a common practice at thousands of crags all over the world (not just France/Spain).  I personally wouldn't hesitate in leaving them in somewhere like LPT or the Diamond because its just not an issue. Obviously in sensitive area's people need to be made aware of all  issues that could affect access. 

Paul B

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and causes similar problems all over the world, Roadside face Red River Gorge, banned.

"It is privately owned and these owners have finally got jacked with too many people, permadraws and questionable new routes. Ugly precedent and a wake up call..."

Which crag would you like to be our wakeup call? Unlike yourself and others on this thread, generally people aren't good enough at employing common sense from crag to crag.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 01:14:48 pm by Paul B »

Doylo

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well maybe there's something to be said for getting into good habits in this country and setting good examples.

Doylo

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Which crag would you like to be our wakeup call?

The Tor please  ;D

Three Nine

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Three Nine

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TobyD

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I can assure you that walkers and passers by are not blind and can see draws, and even bolts.
[/quote]

...i did include the proviso before that, that it depends on the crag. Cheedale, yes, i can see that they are going to be pretty obvious. Do any of the walkers at Malham notice fixed draws there? I rather think not, although if they really do and they'd rather they weren't there, i'd happily not leave draws there. Ditto North Butt at Kilnsey: do the people gawking from the road see the draws there? i seriously doubt it.

slackline

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Sorry. Next time I'll remember to read 'anywhere' as 'at Chee Dale', 'in the UK' or 'at crags with potential access issues'.

The very fact that someone thought leaving draws in on the Cornice would be OK proves that it's increasingly going to be an issue.

Indeed, but I don't think the way to solve that issue is saying that no-one should leave draws in anywhere. Saying no leaving draws in at crags with sensitive access, or crags where lots of people walk right next to it or whatever makes sense, and people are more likely to listen to that IMO. If you say no draws should be left anywhere I'm far more likely to dismiss what you're saying and not take on board the important bit about areas where it's best to strip them every day. I suspect I'm not the only one who works like that.

Perhaps some signs indicating whether its permissible to leave draws in as one approaches a crag wold be useful, after all, not everyone knows the situation at all of the crags (or where the toilets are).  :P

tomtom

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:D  Slackers, does your house have lots of notices around the place? You know, switch the light off. Put the toilet seat down. Remember your keys. Toilet upstairs. ?? ;)

You may find this handy when out in the field..... http://www.sitorsquat.com/ ;)

Norton Sharley

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Oh fuck it, it's been at least a week since I upset someone on here and it's Friday afternoon, so...

Over the years there have been many conflicts with landowners in Yorkshire over access to crags - Kilnsey, Blue and Yew all spring to mind.  The same applies to many other areas of the country.  Part of the issue was, and undoubtedly still is, the unsightly tat, ropes and even pots and pans that used to be left on crags before we had so many bolts.   A proliferation of leaving gear in place is essentially a return to those days. 

Landowners, walkers and passers by in general don't like to see a whole load of fixed gear on crags.  We are lucky enough to have access to and be able to bolt these places.  Is it really so hard to respect the actual or potential wishes of others and remove gear after your day on the crag if it then avoids conflict and maintains access?  There really is no excuse these days when it's so easy to get the kit back in.  And if you've got one of those silly little Beta sticks go to Decathlon and buy a 6m Roach pole instead - you only need to clip every third bolt!

Take your crap out of the routes and take the rest of your crap (finger tape, bog roll etc) home with you at the same time.  It doesn't matter what crag you're on the same principle of leaving it in as pristine condition as possible should surely apply?

Have a good weekend stick clipping...

slackline

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:D  Slackers, does your house have lots of notices around the place? You know, switch the light off. Put the toilet seat down. Remember your keys. Toilet upstairs. ?? ;)

You may find this handy when out in the field..... http://www.sitorsquat.com/ ;)

I've been known to leave post it notes plastered around the house to remind my wife of things (but she does it too, currently there's a sign above my chilli plants telling me they are too big for the window sill and need moving).

chummer

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Now see what you've gone and done Steve  :spank: you're a very naughty boy. And lazy.  :P


Norton Sharley

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You should get those post-its cleared up Slackers before some passing walker objects

TobyD

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and take the rest of your crap (finger tape, bog roll etc) home with you at the same time.  It doesn't matter what crag you're on the same principle of leaving it in as pristine condition as possible should surely apply?

yeah that's utterly fair enough. All the rest of your post is a bit 'other channel' for my liking

IanP

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and take the rest of your crap (finger tape, bog roll etc) home with you at the same time.  It doesn't matter what crag you're on the same principle of leaving it in as pristine condition as possible should surely apply?

yeah that's utterly fair enough. All the rest of your post is a bit 'other channel' for my liking

Don't agree - our best sports crags happen to be in popular areas of the national parks in a small and crowded country.  Removing your gear is just a small hassle to stop the possibility of much bigger problems in the future.

Baron

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Unless you're a sponsored hero why would you want to leave your own draws in a route to get hammered by people dogging on them/UV?

And here's a UKC classic for you; at what grade does leaving draws in a route become acceptable? Or is about people not being good enough to make quick repeats and having to use siege tactics?

When a lot of higher 8's  were being repeated 15 - 20 years ago people stripped their gear at the end of the day. Arguably, being able to gear/strip routes are all part of the skills required of a sport climber - like setting up a belay is when tradding.


abarro81

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Unless you're a sponsored hero why would you want to leave your own draws in a route to get hammered by people dogging on them/UV?
Because the route is steep.
Because the route is long.
Because you want to have a redpoint straight away the next day after warming up, not waste time/energy putting clips in.
Because your mate wants to have an onsight go the next day.
Because there's a section at 30m that you couldn't manage and had to haul the stick up for, but with an extended draw you can just grab it, clip and work that section without the stick.
Because I'm a lazy cunt.

And here's a UKC classic for you; at what grade does leaving draws in a route become acceptable? Or is about people not being good enough to make quick repeats and having to use siege tactics?

At any grade. There's plenty of easy stuff with draws left in for a day or two, or longer, on the continent.
Here's a UKC classic for you; at what grade does "having to use siege tactics" become perseverance/dedication. I've yet to hear a 9a climber dissed for sieging something...

account_inactive

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Unless you're a sponsored hero why would you want to leave your own draws in a route to get hammered by people dogging on them/UV?
Because the route is steep.
Because the route is long.
Because you want to have a redpoint straight away the next day after warming up, not waste time/energy putting clips in.
Because your mate wants to have an onsight go the next day.
Because there's a section at 30m that you couldn't manage and had to haul the stick up for, but with an extended draw you can just grab it, clip and work that section without the stick.
Because I'm a lazy cunt.

And here's a UKC classic for you; at what grade does leaving draws in a route become acceptable? Or is about people not being good enough to make quick repeats and having to use siege tactics?

At any grade. There's plenty of easy stuff with draws left in for a day or two, or longer, on the continent.
Here's a UKC classic for you; at what grade does "having to use siege tactics" become perseverance/dedication. I've yet to hear a 9a climber dissed for sieging something...

.............because climbing is the most important thing in the world? Grow up and stop being so selfish

Tim Broughtonshaw

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Unless you're a sponsored hero why would you want to leave your own draws in a route to get hammered by people dogging on them/UV?
Because the route is steep.
Because the route is long.................
...
; at what grade does "having to use siege tactics" become perseverance/dedication. I've yet to hear a 9a climber dissed for sieging something...
:agree:
ditto your post mate.  I reckon unless there is a access related issue with leaving draws on the sport crag in question (whilst its a current project) then it should be ok.  With the caveat of removing the bottom 2 draws which should help reduce any eyesore and make it less appealing to steal.


Cheers
Tim

Nemo

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Well said Norton Sharley.

Clearly as Doylo and others have said, it’s more of a problem in some places than others.  But there’s really no good reason for leaving in situ draws on UK cliffs at all.  They aren’t long enough or steep enough for it to be a major faff equipping them.  Not only can it jeapordise access in some places / look ugly to non climbers etc etc.  It’s also a pain for other climbers as Paul B said at the start – lots of people don’t want to climb a route on someone else’s draws, when they don’t know their history etc – especially if they’ve been in situ for a long time. 

Clearly, on some of the epic, long and ridiculously steep routes in caves in Spain and elsewhere, different rules apply.  If there aren’t any access issues and the locals o.k it then there shouldn’t be a problem.  On some of those routes, it can literally take a day just to get the clips in a route.  Imagine trying to equip this:


But whilst it is currently common practice in lots of places abroad, it is also leading to quite a lot of problems and so is becoming much more of an issue all over the place:
http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=37459
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/viewtopic.php?p=243536#p243536


But to be honest I’m pretty astonished by the attitude of some people to this (and other) stuff in the UK.  There are only a very small number of great sport climbing cliffs in the UK.  Access to them is not in any way guaranteed.  One of the arguments for bolting in a number of places was to remove all the unslightly tatt etc as Norton said.  Replacing this by in situ draws wasn’t part of the plan.  These places aren’t climbing walls.  The aim of the game should be to try to minimise impact in every way possible.  And if people did this, then perhaps it would be a lot easier to make the case for sport climbing in other appropriate places.

So maybe it’s time people stopped being so “British” about some of these things.  Next time someone shows up at the base of the Directissima, having just parked blocking the road, how about everyone turns round in unison and sceams “MOVE YOUR F*CKING CAR”.  And if people leave their draws at the Cornice, how about removing them and taking them to Outside where the person can retrieve them later.  If this happened a few times, I think this kind of stuff would stop pretty quickly.  Peer pressure is more likely to be effective than polite notices in obscure threads on the internet.


Tim Broughtonshaw

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Quote
jeapordise access in some places / look ugly to non climbers
agree that if there is an obvious access issue or negative comments then the practice should be lessened.  But i would imagine draws left in routes is probably a pretty small negative aspect to the non climbing detractors. The vast amount of negative associations probably come with all other climbing related aspects which negate the draws issue.


 
Quote
They aren’t long enough or steep enough for it to be a major faff equipping them.   
Thats a bit of a sweeping statement which isn't true for several routes i can think of.

Quote
  It’s also a pain for other climbers as Paul B said at the start – lots of people don’t want to climb a route on someone else’s draws, when they don’t know their history etc – especially if they’ve been in situ for a long time. 

I think this argument has as much for as against. Seen many situations whereby a set of draws makes the route more attractive to wads looking for a quick onsight or others wanting to "have a go" with the ability to bail significantly easier (if they cannot do a move etc).


Just my 2 cents.

Cheers
Tim

 

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