[shark]

Are any of these insitu draws which were removed still knocking about? I'm in the process of getting the BMC's portable test machine up and running, if it's ready in time then breaking some of the draws would be quite a topical subject for the next Area Meeting, to compliment the excellent DMM video.

I'll email Stone to see if he wants the slings back. They would have had some action.

They weren't Stone's - his were on Bodybuilder which he took out. So you are welcome to them. Shall I post them or leave  them at the Foundry or just hang them off a bolt at Raven Tor ?

[Norton Sharley]

I have some old (c.20 years) well stored and not used much (ie non UV'd but old) QD's you can test if you like?
As well as some old (30 years?) ones - origin unknown?

In fact there would probably be great merit in testing as many as possible from a range of ages, so you get a good number of results (max, min, averages, distributions etc..)? I'm sure folk on here have a range of old kit they wouldnt mind donating for research?

  and have several old sports and trad draws and krabs that I would be happy to donate for testing

[danm]

Thanks guys for the offer of stuff to break. I reckon the easiest thing to do is to bring anything to the meeting. If you can't make it, give it to a mate who can. I'm also hoping to take the test rig on tour to other areas after I do the one in the Peak. I'll do a post to remind people on here and the other channel nearer the time.

[tomtom]

Sounds like it would make a great dissertation/project for any Undergrads studying engineering/material science who climb.... volunteers??

[dobbin]

Dylan and I went on Mecca last night. Dylan, who is practically a pygmy he's so small was able to bolt to bolt the entire thing in five minutes without even so much as a clip stick. I think he commented how perfectly warmed up he felt after this, and went on to redpoint the route in fine style.

(Some of the above is lies)

[account_inactive]

I am of course 6ft 4

[Three Nine]

Dylan and I went on Mecca last night. Dylan, who is practically a pygmy he's so small was able to bolt to bolt the entire thing in five minutes without even so much as a clip stick. I think he commented how perfectly warmed up he felt after this, and went on to redpoint the route in fine style.

(Some of the above is lies)

I hope he took the clips out between redpoints? During the day is, of course, when draws are most visible - not during the night (you know, when they've been left in by those sport climbing types). Why am I asking? Being such a fine chap of course he will have taken them out!

[Three Nine]

My karma's not too far off neutral - I need taking down a peg or two.

[rodma]

Dylan and I went on Mecca last night. Dylan, who is practically a pygmy he's so small was able to bolt to bolt the entire thing in five minutes without even so much as a clip stick. I think he commented how perfectly warmed up he felt after this, and went on to redpoint the route in fine style.

(Some of the above is lies)

I hope he took the clips out between redpoints? During the day is, of course, when draws are most visible - not during the night (you know, when they've been left in by those sport climbing types). Why am I asking? Being such a fine chap of course he will have taken them out!

 

[account_inactive]

 

[Fultonius]

Sounds like it would make a great dissertation/project for any Undergrads studying engineering/material science who climb.... volunteers??

Dr Andrew McLaren at Strathclyde always ran a few UG thesis projects on this type of thing. Often students just tested krabs to failure and learnt nothing new, but a dent trail with a load of old draws with some decent statistical analysis would be quite interesting!

I might see if he's interested.

[account_inactive]

 

[Three Nine]

How very rude.

[Jim]

I am of course 6ft 4

only with go-go gadget legs fully extended

[tomtom]

From the DFBWGC etc... thread, second article in the mag (on the cover - 'perma problem') anyone read the article?

[Johnny Brown]

Interesting press release from Mammut (full post here):

Mammut is urgently calling for the immediate discontinuation of use and removal of permanently installed quick draws and carabiners in climbing areas. Irrespective of the manufacturer of such equipment, repeated wear can result in the formation of sharp edges capable of damaging or completely severing ropes, even in relatively small falls. Investigations by Mammut have shown that this known problem is actually far more dramatic than previously assumed and represents a very high risk for climbers. 

Combined with the weakening effect of hanger burrs on webbing identified above, it's perhaps surprising there haven't been more accidents. Calling for a total moratorium sounds extreme, but there was a death last month in Switzerland. More discussion by BD

http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/journal/climb//qc-lab-dangers-of-rope-worn-carabiners

.

Personally I doubt people are going to stop using them, and I'd urge climbers to take personal responsibility, learn where problems are likely and what to look for, and make careful inspection part of their warm-up/ first go.

[danm]

I attended a rope seminar last week; the rep from Beal was pretty clear that anything other than a well radiused, polished rope bearing surface would at at the very least cause premature wear to a rope. Steel krabs or cheap poorly polished alloy ones trash moving ropes, matt anodising is particularly bad too. Nicks, burrs and sharp edged grooves formed by wear will destroy the sheath easily. I don't know the exact circumstances in the Swiss fatality, but my guess is the rope probably failed because as well as the sharp edge on the krab, it sounds like there was a sharp change in direction in the rope path (under a roof) which would make any fall much more violent because it effectively raises the fall factor. (there's probably also a stress concentrating effect on the rope just where you don't want it).

Thing is, on some routes not having permadraws is going to be  pretty impractical. In these cases, it has to be incumbent on the climber to case the route out first and check the condition of the draws, replacing rope krabs where needed. Sometimes I'm glad I'm a punter, this isn't something that's likley to affect me, but for you wads out there, take care!

[petejh]

...
Steel krabs or cheap poorly polished alloy ones trash moving ropes, matt anodising is particularly bad too.
...

By this do you mean steel biners on fixed draws are worse than aluminum alloy biners? I'd have thought steel biners would wear at a much slower rate at least. Or is there a comparatively worse burring effect on steels?

[danm]

The steel krab wears much less, but the problem is many steel krabs do not have the smooth polished finish required, so the rough surface does the damage rather than a worn krab. That make sense?

[Johnny Brown]

Can't say I've ever seen roughly finished steel krabs myself, but if a matt finish on an alloy krab is an issue then these are common on steel krabs. These smooth off with wear, but I've never really seen the rope grooves you get worn into alloy krabs.

[Paul B]

If you want to see some truly horrifying draws then try climbing at Lourmarin, its like the bolters took the mecca draws, larks footed them together and when they ran out of 'draws' they started using the remnants of chopped, ruined ropes to make their own. They then stuck a Nike Air tick and Nutella labels to a few!

[Johnny Brown]

IF you're going to rely on tat give me rope over tape any day; so much more durable.

[ian dunn]

There are some stainless Krabs on the market, however they are not very easy to clip, and are pretty expensive, compared to alloy ones.

I also saw some permanent draws with wire instead of slings, however the rope clipping Karb would need to be stainless to limit wear.

Isn't it about time the climbing walls put some demands on the gear manufacturers to have some nice stainless biners that are easy to clip. With the number of walls in the UK surely there would be a good market for this. A stainless version of the the alpha would be a massive seller as these are used in an industrial / rather than leisure situation.

[shark]

There are some stainless Krabs on the market, however they are not very easy to clip, and are pretty expensive, compared to alloy ones.

I also saw some permanent draws with wire instead of slings, however the rope clipping Karb would need to be stainless to limit wear.

Isn't it about time the climbing walls put some demands on the gear manufacturers to have some nice stainless biners that are easy to clip. With the number of walls in the UK surely there would be a good market for this. A stainless version of the the alpha would be a massive seller as these are used in an industrial / rather than leisure situation.

In my view I'd rather they didn't as it's one more reason to do away with perma-draws altogether.

I would be wholly unimpressed with a manufacturer who developed one with the covert or overt intention that they are used for this purpose and distributed it in the UK.

Other countries can do what they like.

[shark]

Can whichever hero has left their quickdraws in Mecca Extension please take them out.

Don't want the rot to set in again.

Thank you.