UKBouldering.com

Leaving draws in routes and situ draws (split from Chee Dale conditions thread) (Read 71122 times)

Paul B

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 8773
  • Karma: +235/-4
Cornice all dry still.

Surprisingly good conditions tonight despite it being hot as hell and very humid.

Could I ask that if people are going to leave draws in (k3) they at least leave in something decent. Dogging on dyneema is painful and shit. Ignoring the fact that really, its pretty lazy to leave them in anyway (and ignoring the access points raised by JB), leaving one you can reach from the floor seems like tempting fate.

 :tumble:

Stevie

Offline
  • *
  • regular
  • Posts: 43
  • Karma: +2/-0
Hi Paul,
Really sorry about leaving the clips in K3. I was un aware that this was part of/affected the access agreement. Unfortunately I spent longer on it than I had realised and was exceptionally late so didn't both stripping the route as I had planned on returning in the near future and yes, I agree, leaving the bottom draw in is tempting fate slightly.

With regards to the quality of the quickdraws on the route, these are the only draws I own so I didn't really have much choice. I'm surprised that with the time you saved not having to put your own draws in you didn't just swap the dyneema ones over to your decent QDs for dogging on.

Apologies once again,

Steve Franklin

Paul B

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 8773
  • Karma: +235/-4
sorry my post was overly bitchy (it was meant as sarcasm), the issue I had was then what to do with them, leave them hanging on the first bolt making it even easier for someone to steal? or swap them out again after? stick them at the top of Clarion? etc.

dave

  • Guest
The more pressing issue is that people shouldn't be leaving clips in routes anywhere, especially not a very public crag with sensitive access like the cornice.

Three Nine

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1309
  • Karma: +136/-55
The more pressing issue is that people shouldn't be leaving clips in routes anywhere, especially not a very public crag with sensitive access like the cornice.

I assume this is a joke?

Johnny Brown

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 10840
  • Karma: +589/-20

benpritch

Online
  • ****
  • forum abuser
  • Posts: 649
  • Karma: +84/-0
The more pressing issue is that people shouldn't be leaving clips in routes anywhere, especially not a very public crag with sensitive access like the cornice.

I assume this is a joke?

why?

dave

  • Guest
The more pressing issue is that people shouldn't be leaving clips in routes anywhere, especially not a very public crag with sensitive access like the cornice.

I assume this is a joke?

When do I ever joke.

abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3475
  • Karma: +268/-23
The more pressing issue is that people shouldn't be leaving clips in routes anywhere,
This view is retarded. If you disagree, I suggest you try projecting something long and steep, especially where you don't do the moves as part of your warm up for redpoints because it's too long/painful etc. Not everywhere is like peak limestone.

especially not a very public crag with sensitive access like the cornice.

...makes rather more sense, but your point would be much better made without the first part, since the important bit gets lost behind the stupid bit.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2011, 03:31:26 pm by abarro81 »

shark

Offline
  • *****
  • Administrator
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 7814
  • Karma: +562/-16
  • insect overlord #1
Quote

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/News.aspx?id=4275
 
Chee Dale Access Issues

This news article explains new ways of approaching the Dale, reminds everyone of the access and bolting agreements the BMC has negotiated with Derbyshire Wildlife Trust who own most of it........a very important point to note is that there is no public access within the Dale away from the public right of way, and as climbers we have unique negotiated concessions.

Bolting and other climbing guidelines

Bolted routes were in the main established before the Wildlife Trust acquired the site. They would very much prefer there to be no bolts or lower offs at all, but have conceded that where sport routes are established they may remain, though any replacement of fixed gear can only be on a like for like basis and should not be glaringly obvious. Routes should always be left clean of quick draws or tat.

There is an absolute embargo on bolting new routes and on retro bolting. It is really important that everyone observes this. If you came across anyone infringing this agreement please point out it could easily cost all concessionary access for everyone. The Wildlife Trust is absolutely clear this is no idle threat.

By Henry Folkard (BMC Peak Access Co-ordinator) 


Clearly the relationship with the Wildlife Trust is tricky and it would help the Access reps that we abide by what has been agreed (which is not excessively onerous) to avoid a stand-off/confrontation and improve on the concessions in the future. 

Three Nine

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1309
  • Karma: +136/-55
Yep, Cheedale is a special case, no quickdraws to be left in to protect access and not upset people. Generally speaking though its not a problem leaving draws in and in some cases its necessary, or at least a massive pain in the arse not to. Often on very steep routes the draws go in when the route is bolted, and stay until they need changing (and often they stay in long after they need changing!).

shark

Offline
  • *****
  • Administrator
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 7814
  • Karma: +562/-16
  • insect overlord #1
Anyway, this is all a bit  :offtopic:

Well it was on topic here: here but clearly ignored.

If it takes discussing it in DFBWGC to get the message across I dont care. Same goes for pissing in the Cove Centre Car park.

There are a lot of competing interests in a crowded countryside and if we are to muddle along with other groups and landowners to continue to enjoy decent access to crags it would help the cause to behave decently.

abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3475
  • Karma: +268/-23
If people aren't supposed to leave stuff in at Chee Dale for access reasons, just say people shouldn't be leaving stuff in a Chee Dale for access reasons. This sort of thing is useful to know. If you say people shouldn't be leaving draws in anywhere you'll get ignored/questioned because it's a stupid thing to say.

Doylo

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 6587
  • Karma: +404/-7

Johnny Brown

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 10840
  • Karma: +589/-20
Its hardly a stupid thing to say in The Peak is it? And this is a Chee Dale thread. I can't think of a single crag in The Peak where there would be no issue whatsoever with having the crag festooned with draws. The fact is we share these places with other visitors, and I don't believe our convenience should outweigh their considerations (and neither do the landowners as a rule, in fact the opposite is true). If you want to call people ignorant or retarded than I those who ignore this fact might be more relevant.

Three Nine

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 1309
  • Karma: +136/-55
Cunts that puntered me - you are wrong. And I had neutral karma for a sec or two!

T_B

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2819
  • Karma: +132/-5
If you say people shouldn't be leaving draws in anywhere you'll get ignored/questioned because it's a stupid thing to say.

I wouldn't be so sure of yourself. It's interesting that you think the widely held view in the UK is that it's OK to leave draws in. Maybe amongst your peer group, but with most of our premier sport crags being in sensitive areas, I don't think it's a good idea to adopt the common wisdom from the continent. It's common in Spain etc as there are lots of massively steep and long routes, but that isn't the case here. The very fact that someone thought leaving draws in on the Cornice would be OK proves that it's increasingly going to be an issue. I don't know when the draws were fixed in Mecca, but until that happened I can't remember ever seeing draws left in place on British sport crags. We wouldn't have any issues if the general attitude was that it's not the done thing. There are crags with new bolts in (e.g. Blue Scar) where the land owner is totally p*ssed off with the arrogant attitude of climbers, so is making it harder for us to go there. Access to our crags is only going to become more difficult in the future, and I don't see how leaving draws in place helps our cause.

Johnny Brown

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 10840
  • Karma: +589/-20
Well said. I'd add that, according those better informed than I, both the conservation movement and any dialogue between them and climbers is years ahead in the UK compared to Spain and France. I'm not sure taking what goes on there as 'the norm' is wise or applicable here.

Jaspersharpe

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • 1B punter
  • Posts: 12471
  • Karma: +600/-20
  • Allez Oleeeve!
They've also got shitloads of amazing unclimbed crags there so it really doesn't matter too much if a crag or part of a crag is banned. The complete opposite is true here.

Arguing against this point of view is arguing in favour of risking access to the crags you want to climb on for the sake of laziness. Or in other words, rank stupidity of the highest order.

TobyD

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 2831
  • Karma: +82/-2
  • Job offers gratefully accepted
Depends on the crag obviously

I agree with you completely there. I can see that Cheedale is not a place to leave draws hanging about. However, i cannot see that anyone would have a problem with fixed draws on North Buttress at Kilnsey, or example. (notwithstanding leaving them there over winter, but that's a seperate issue). I'd strongly argue that most non climbers would not notice fixed draws / tat anyway unless it was pretty low down. If there are associated access concerns, those should take precedence, but let's not get all excited and jump up and down about something which is probably a minor issue compared to litter, path useage, parking etc.     

tomtom

Online
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 20249
  • Karma: +631/-10
They've also got shitloads of amazing unclimbed crags there so it really doesn't matter too much if a crag or part of a crag is banned. The complete opposite is true here.

Arguing against this point of view is arguing in favour of risking access to the crags you want to climb on for the sake of laziness. Or in other words, rank stupidity of the highest order.

We live in a far more densely populated country than France or Spain - hence more pressures on what small(ish) climing areas/resources there are.

Personally I'd never leave a draw in, mainly because I'm tight fisted and paranoid :) , so I'd fully expect someone to come along and claim their crag booty :) Also, with the proliferation of clip-sticks (they were never around when I was a yoof it was a stick and some finger tape..) its not that much of a chore to re-hang/equip a line is it? It is a bit lazy to leave them hanging there..

dave

  • Guest
Depends on the crag obviously

I agree with you completely there. I can see that Cheedale is not a place to leave draws hanging about. However, i cannot see that anyone would have a problem with fixed draws on North Buttress at Kilnsey, or example. (notwithstanding leaving them there over winter, but that's a seperate issue). I'd strongly argue that most non climbers would not notice fixed draws / tat anyway unless it was pretty low down. If there are associated access concerns, those should take precedence, but let's not get all excited and jump up and down about something which is probably a minor issue compared to litter, path useage, parking etc.     
I can assure you that walkers and passers by are not blind and can see draws, and even bolts.

Johnny Brown

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 10840
  • Karma: +589/-20
Quote
If there are associated access concerns, those should take precedence, but let's not get all excited and jump up and down about something which is probably a minor issue compared to litter, path useage, parking etc

This is all true and I agree, but its rather harder to pin those other factors solely on climbers. I go to a lot of meetings and the issue of fixed gear on crags always comes up - folk do notice it and never like it. They rarely get the concept that you keep going back on a route and often perceive it as litter left behind during the ascent.

Quote
Also, with the proliferation of clip-sticks (they were never around when I was a yoof it was a stick and some finger tape..) its not that much of a chore to re-hang/equip a line is it?

Exactly.

abarro81

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 3475
  • Karma: +268/-23
Sorry. Next time I'll remember to read 'anywhere' as 'at Chee Dale', 'in the UK' or 'at crags with potential access issues'.

The very fact that someone thought leaving draws in on the Cornice would be OK proves that it's increasingly going to be an issue.

Indeed, but I don't think the way to solve that issue is saying that no-one should leave draws in anywhere. Saying no leaving draws in at crags with sensitive access, or crags where lots of people walk right next to it or whatever makes sense, and people are more likely to listen to that IMO. If you say no draws should be left anywhere I'm far more likely to dismiss what you're saying and not take on board the important bit about areas where it's best to strip them every day. I suspect I'm not the only one who works like that.

SA Chris

Offline
  • *****
  • forum hero
  • Posts: 26212
  • Karma: +542/-10
    • http://groups.msn.com/ChrisClix
Personally I'd never leave a draw in, mainly because I'm tight fisted and paranoid :) , so I'd fully expect someone to come along and claim their crag booty :) Also, with the proliferation of clip-sticks (they were never around when I was a yoof it was a stick and some finger tape..) its not that much of a chore to re-hang/equip a line is it? It is a bit lazy to leave them hanging there..

Likewise. also never seen anyone take more than 10 mins to clean a single pitch sport route using various tactics, regardless of steepness.

 

SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2021, SimplePortal