[Rocksteady]

I'm not a local but as someone who has only recently discovered the delights of Chee Dale I would be wholeheartedly behind any initiatives to preserve access to this area.

To be honest I personally disagree that bolts are visually intrusive, but the fact remains that we have negotiated ourselves a nice deal in Cheedaleand we have to live by it whether we agree or not. If we are stepping outside of the agreed bounds then we need to self police and be seen to do so.

 

[cofe]

tunnels all open yesteryither. Done a map while eating a sandwich:



blue dotted line is path from wormhill (obviously), red dotted one shows the old railway and the BIG TUNNEL. Really easy/pleasant walk pretty much straight to the crag. path down to cornice etc is signed on the left (approaching from Miller's Dale) after tunnel - easy to spot.

[T_B]

tunnels all open yesteryither. Could see bolts on Dong's Dinner quite clearly from the bridge. Done a map while eating a sandwich:



blue dotted line is path from wormhill (obviously), red dotted one shows the old railway and the BIG TUNNEL. Really easy/pleasant walk pretty much straight to the crag. path down to cornice etc is signed on the left (approaching from Miller's Dale) after tunnel - easy to spot.

And I thank you 

Seems well obvious now. Maybe a few handy maps tucked under windscreen wipers and the Wormhill problem would be solved?

[Johnny Brown]

To be honest I personally disagree that bolts are visually intrusive, but the fact remains that we have negotiated ourselves a nice deal in Chee dale and we have to live by it whether we agree or not. If we are stepping outside of the agreed bounds then we need to self police and be seen to do so.

This is the nub of the issue. I think historically bolters have tended to operate in a bit of a vigilante manner due to ethical concerns within the climbing community - don't ask, don't tell, just stick them in and see if they get accepted. Part of the problem is the woefully out-of-date guidebooks. Or perhaps an impression persists that the BMC are anti-bolt or that individuals like myself are pushing a personal ant-bolt agenda behind vague 'access concerns'. But that really isn't the case. Its 2011, I think the ethical debates are largely over and folk need to understand that relationships with conservation bodies have moved on enormously. There is a lot more at stake here than some tit-for-tat retrobolt-chopping beard-twitching scene. Unfortunately there is more detail than can easily be explained online, and more subtleties than can be aired on a public forum. I'm not around much in the next few weeks (and my area is supposed to be eastern edges...) so those involved may need to lead on this. PM me if you want more info.

[RichK]

We've intentionally not posted this on UKC though there is info on the BMC site. Would prefer to keep it a little lower profile and avoid some of the idiotic comments which are par for the course on there. DWT etc monitor forums and it doesn't always give them a great impression of climbers.

can't it be added but without an attached forum thread? the point of all this is to publicise, right? Seems crazy to not use UKC's news function.

[Jim]

Its 2011

Exactly, we don't need bolts anymore, just flick the switch on the jet pack if we fall off

[RichK]

Used the new approach to the Cornice/Chee Tor this eve. Its  .

There were 6 cars at Wormhill at 5.30. More arrived I'm sure as the Cornice was busy.

We just warmed up there then went on The Ogre...... Clearly, this thread doesn't seem to be getting word out? Or folk are ignoring it?

How about a BMC styli notice, plasticised & hung up at the Cornice for a few weeks.

Some details of new approach, parking, bolting policy, Wormhill resident issues etc......

Or get it on the other Channel

[slackline]

Clearly, this thread doesn't seem to be getting word out? Or folk are ignoring it?

How about a BMC styli notice, plasticised & hung up at the Cornice for a few weeks.

Some details of new approach, parking, bolting policy, Wormhill resident issues etc......

Or get it on the other Channel

Or talk to the other people at the crag you don't know?

Not everyone...

a) has the internet (I know its amazing isn't it!)
b) uses this particular forum (why the hell not?)
c) uses the "other Channel" (I guess thats not too unreasonable).

[Ethan]

Used the new approach to the Cornice/Chee Tor this eve. Its  .

There were 6 cars at Wormhill at 5.30. More arrived I'm sure as the Cornice was busy.

We just warmed up there then went on The Ogre...... Clearly, this thread doesn't seem to be getting word out? Or folk are ignoring it?

How about a BMC styli notice, plasticised & hung up at the Cornice for a few weeks.

Some details of new approach, parking, bolting policy, Wormhill resident issues etc......

Or get it on the other Channel

I believe this may be down to the other channel saying that the tunnels would not be open until the 25th May. When in fact they have been open now for around a week or so.

[lagerstarfish]

Done a map while eating a sandwich:

you should do this shit for a living

[Will Hunt]

If there isn't signage in place saying that parking isn't allowed then that seems like a fundamental error. A simple sign on the point of access briefly explaining why access by that route is not allowed, the consequences of people going against this and then alternative instructions seems like a no brainer. Not everyone is going to check the RAD/UKB/UKC before they go and if they don't have the information then they can hardly be blamed for breaking the rules.

[Paul B]

I can also see the pay and display aspect of the 'new' parking putting people off regardless.

[Adam Lincoln]

How about a BMC styli notice, plasticised & hung up at the Cornice for a few weeks.

That didn't do anything about the parking at Kilnsey. People don't seem to open their eyes.

[Will Hunt]

Maybe just post the official lime caller there, training his pinch grip cracking the skulls of those who disobey.

"The lime has called, but you're not invited"

[Johnny Brown]

Parking at Wormhill is still permitted, but we'd like to see the end of the kind of inconsiderate parking that upsets locals. Unfortunately the inconsiderate aren't likely to change their behaviour, but if the considerate move to Miller's Dale then at least the inconsiderate should get a proper spot. Its far from ideal, but lets face it, being a twat often gets you on in life.

[slackline]

How about a BMC styli notice, plasticised & hung up at the Cornice for a few weeks.

That didn't do anything about the parking at Kilnsey. People don't seem to open their eyes.

It may have made a difference to some who will have parked elsewhere, but to others it won't.  You'll have more easily noticed/remembered people who are doing something wrong as its annoying and the evidence is more readily available.

[shark]

Due to certain sensitivities about bolting  which have been drawn to my attention I have edited a couple of posts and removed two others.

There are a number of things that I would like clarified but the appropriate forum is the next Peak meet.

PM me if you are unhappy about editing the posts or Johnny Brown for the state of play. 

[sidewinder]

This year is my first at Chee Tor, so far I have been parking at the Topley Pike layby, which has seemed fine to me, although I am keen on the idea of avoiding the hill so out of interest how enforced is the Millers Dale pay and display?  If it is enforced in the same way as the Curbar/Millstone/Stanage car parks I might be tempted to try it.  If not I will continue to use Topley Pike, which also gives me an excuse to go to the Monyash Cafe on the way there/back.

[slackline]

Never understood the reluctance to pay for parking, you spend more on petrol getting there so a few quid which in the most part go to help up-keep the parking facilities, and areas we're visiting is nothing really, certainly less than wall entry which many will drive to.

However, I do prefer the way Stanage Popular has a collection box rather than forcing pay and display (and always throw a quid or so in when I'm leaving).

[Norton Sharley]

Despite my initial scepticism (sharley not) we used the approach from Millers Dale last night to the Cornice.  From Cornice to car took 12 minutes, and that was with Rob's dodgy hip hindering us and stopping to examine various interesting construction details in the tunnel like the bizarre new red bricks fastened to the walls (wtf?).  We both concluded that it was just as quick as parking at Wormhill taking into account the extra driving time plus the alpine (for sports climbers) hill out and will not be parking at Wormhill again.  I'm also thinking that parking at Millers Dale gives quicker access to Two Tier when the additional driving (from Sheffield) and the Himalayan hill out is taken into account.  If you were coming from Manchester then this might not be the case.

Regarding paying in the car park, the charge sign does not refer to a non-payment penalty but does refer to the bye-laws which are on a separate notice which do refer to a penalty for non-payment of £35 reduced to £20 if you pay quickly.  Charges only apply before 6pm.   My understanding, which may well be wrong, is that the charge sign has to state that there is a penalty for non-payment, which there would appear to be by reference to the bye-laws.  So it would appear you could be charged a penalty for non-payment.  Whether this is enforced remains to be seen.  Solicitors please ? .....

You could always park free of charge in the limited layby on the main road and walk up the small hill onto the railway if you were really fussed about the parking charges.

Hope this helps convince a few more to park at Millers Dale.

[Nigel]

Never understood the reluctance to pay for parking...

Slackers, you must have more money than sense to not understand this! I think you're being overly sanctimonious here.

It is a PDNPA car park, same as Curbar and Millstone. Much as I would love to be able to give the nice folks at PDNPA all my cash so they can sell Stanage, it doesn't make much financial sense. As Norton rightly says charges are up to 6pm so after work hits should be fine. At other times all I will say is that I have parked at Curbar and Millstone hundreds of times without a ticket and never been penalised. Anecdotal I grant you, but perhaps indicative. As Norton also rightly says there is a layby at the Wormhill turn off which for those who don't mind walking / riding an extra 200 yards is a perfect free alternative.

[slackline]

I'm not at all trying to take the higher moral ground, I was stating my reasons why I don't understand people's objections to paying to park.

Its not that I have more money than sense, but roads and car-parks don't appear out of thin air and maintain themselves.  The former are paid for and maintained out of Road Tax (and the tax on fuel), the later from the fees charged for using them.  I don't drive around without road tax, so I have no problem with paying to park, especially as there are usually a few people in whoevers car we've driven to the crag in, and splitting this cost makes it equivalent to less than fuck all per person (hence the above comparison to the cost of fuel to get to the crag, and what people pay when they use indoor walls).  I'm not for a minute saying its no more expensive than not paying because that is patently stupid and of course you'd save money by not paying, but relatively the cost of parking isn't that high.

Yes its great that the fees aren't enforced > 18:00 in most of these places and I'll happily take advantage of this, and fortuitous that generally fine/tickets aren't issued for not paying and displaying, but I'll continue to pay as its basically fuck all, and cheaper than entry to the wall or a fine (should it ever be levied).  I don't expect others to change their attitude/behavior in light of this at all.

[sidewinder]

relatively the cost of parking isn't that high

From my house, about 40 miles away, petrol (return) ~£10, PDNPA parking £3.50, so 35% of the cost again, I think this is a pretty high relative cost, no matter how you are sharing it out, for those coming from Sheffield surely the ratio must be worse (depending on the car you are driving).  Also, in the course of a climbing day in the Peak I often visit more than one venue depending on the weather and a multitude of other factors.  For example one could easily, in a day, start at Stanage Plantation, walk in,find it too windy, then Secret Garden too greasy, then Curbar too busy and be £10.50 down without having climbed.

It also seems a little mad to pay where in almost every case you can either ignore it, or park nearby, legally and for free, much better, in my opinion would be a system where all of the PDNPA car parks, rather than 19 of the 48, suggested a voluntary contribution of =<£1. Even you seem to concur that this is an actual reasonable cost to pay to park

I do prefer the way Stanage Popular has a collection box rather than forcing pay and display (and always throw a quid or so in when I'm leaving)

, maybe this would discourage people parking inconsiderately to avoid charges (something I always avoid doing I must stress) and allow sensible flexibility, without the threat (however real or not) of punishment for non payment.

Then again maybe I should just pay the £30 for a years pass to enable me to take the moral high ground  or £15 to have one sent to my friends house in Bakewell which will stand me on a slightly more dubious moral high ground

[cofe]

the main issue for me isn't the cost, but whether the revenue goes back into the national park and its facilities. i'm sure with the P&D car parks in the eastern peak, the money doesn't. i can't remember where i read/heard that (BMC meeting), but it's a big issue for me.

[slackline]

Another comparator is the cost of a pint on the way home which is ~£3, ok not everyone has a beer on the way home, but viewing the cost of parking in that light its really not much.

You should check @isitgreasy for conditions reports, and over time its fairly easy to build a working knowledge of where is likely to be suitable for climbing if conditions are marginal, so you don't necessarily end up having to pay to park in three different places and waste petrol getting between them.

As you both say there are free alternatives and I too use those in preference (I'm not that stupid, despite outward appearances), but I don't begrudge having to pay for parking when I have to and am still struggling to understand why others do.

the main issue for me isn't the cost, but whether the revenue goes back into the national park and its facilities. i'm sure with the P&D car parks in the eastern peak, the money doesn't. i can't remember where i read/heard that (BMC meeting), but it's a big issue for me.

I think all the machines will show who operates them and where the revenue goes.


Anyway,