[c.j.d.]

I do actually like operating in a bubble these days with regards to hard bouldering - it makes life easier, and you can concentrate on the important bits without distraction.  Now and again, I'll have a look out and about as and when it suits to see what's going on in the world, and then disappear in again.

Now, I was bouldering a few weeks back (outside of the imaginary sphere), with a certain individual who casually directed me in the direction of a certain web site.  This came part and parcel along with the knowledge that a certain person may or may not have ascended a handful of problems correctly (downgrading one), down at Porth Ysgo.  I mentioned this (in passing) to A. Nother, who located said website/Blogspot, showing the video posted on it to me yesterday.

I'm not one to gossip, and don't really get involved with all of this very often.  Also, I think that the boulderer in question probably is very strong and talented, but...  Listed below are three problems that appear on the film, all of which have been climbed incorrectly by quite a margin, and have been claimed as repeats or 1st ascents:

Dolly Rocker:  This was given 8a+ by 1st ascentionist.  The person repeating in this video starts three moves in (as opposed to on the obvious jug under the roof), with the downgrade to 8a.  This is actually about 7b+ from this position.  This puts down the efforts of the 1st ascentionist, and also robs the thunder of a would be 2nd ascentionist - bad karma.

pr0n Makes me Horny:  Originally given 8a by Captain Muscles, and thought to be 8a by most.  The climber pulls on a move into the problem, and down grades to 7c+.  Again, probably 7c from here.  A cracking problem not be fucked with - its all about the power, kids.

Tide of Dreams:  Climber pulls on from two moves in, and then climbs a 7b/+ as opposed to the true line, which to all others who attempted this line, starts a lot lower down, and involves the moves which does in fact cause this to become a tricky 7c+ line.  Does somebody else deserve the 1st ascent tick - probably (any takers?).

There are no names mentioned here at all, as my intention is not to discredit an individual (!), but for gods sake, climb things properly and not for the downgrading or first ascent glory.  Tide of Dreams has had a couple of ascents now I think - so, who got there first?

I've only written this as I really was stunned at the blatant lack of true ascending going on in such a short film - I wonder how much this happens for a quick tick (across the board).  I once spent about £700 quid and took on a 1300 mile drive to send Electric Ant (8b) over in Chironico.  I got to the top, and retuned home only to discover that I should have started a move lower down. 

Gutted as I was, it came off the list and now I'll have to go back - this can happen, and you have to be okay with it when it does.  Come on guys - lets do it properly or not at all. 

Anyhow, back to the bubble.

[Pantontino]

 

[cofe]

there really is a smilie for everything!

[c.j.d.]

  Me to!

[Jaspersharpe]

Shouldn't this also have a    a  and possibly a  ?

 

[Pantontino]

Well, if no-one replies it could end up with:

But somehow I think we're more likely to see a lot of:       

Possibly followed by: 

[dave]

as long as its not 

[Paul B]

There are no names mentioned here at all, as my intention is not to discredit an individual (!), but for gods sake, climb things properly and not for the downgrading or first ascent glory.  Tide of Dreams has had a couple of ascents now I think - so, who got there first?

Wouldn't it have been a bit easier to comment on the video/blog rather than here?

[slackline]

Wouldn't it have been a bit easier to comment on the video/blog rather than here?

  but perhaps that was done first/too/in addition? 

[dave]

Not that I can see:

http://redclimbing.blogspot.com/2011/01/magic-of-porth-ysgo-dry-bouldering-its.html

(P.S. I'm slightly confused by the logic of playing the "i'm not going to name names" card, then in the same sentence making it entirely obvious to everyone who you're talking about anyway).

[Probes]

 

[tc]

http://redclimbing.blogspot.com/2011/01/magic-of-porth-ysgo-dry-bouldering-its.html

If I see one more video featuring "The Drive to the Crag" I am going to drive into Keswick and kill something. "I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!"
Man, it's been a hard week in the North Lakes...

[Paul B]

Here perhaps?

[slackline]

I hadn't worked out, thanks dave.

Question(s)?

How well documented are the sequences to the problems in question?  I know NWB covers Porth Ysgo, but haven't looked at it in a while, and have no idea whether these problems precede its publication or are afterwards. 

If afterwards where are the starting holds/positions/sequences documented for potential repeat ascentionists to get things right?  Could it simply be that not enough information was at this persons disposal so they climbed what they thought was the obvious line?

 

[petejh]

If I see one more video featuring "The Drive to the Crag" I am going to drive into Keswick and kill something. "I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!"
Man, it's been a hard week in the North Lakes...

Make sure you film 'the drive in to kill something in Keswick'...

[SA Chris]

I am going to drive into Keswick and kill something. "I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!"

Going Postal. Or Going Taxi Driver as it's known round there.

[Probes]

Ah man im getting confused with what/me/how/when im saying stuff, need to change my avatar.

[slackline]

If I see one more video featuring "The Drive to the Crag" I am going to drive into Keswick and kill something. "I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE!"
Man, it's been a hard week in the North Lakes...

Make sure you have this blaring when you do...



...or the remix...

[andy_e]

Or this:



Or just have a DVD player playing "Network" in the background.

[ducko]

its easily done getting a hold or two wrong on a route but i think downgrading things when your clearly not 100% sure on the correct route isnt on, personally id never downgrade anything anyway unless it was a real piss take

[Pantontino]

How well documented are the sequences to the problems in question?  I know NWB covers Porth Ysgo, but haven't looked at it in a while, and have no idea whether these problems precede its publication or are afterwards. 

If afterwards where are the starting holds/positions/sequences documented for potential repeat ascentionists to get things right?  Could it simply be that not enough information was at this persons disposal so they climbed what they thought was the obvious line?

 

A few facts:

Dolly Rocker was actually given a split 8A/+ grade by Nodder:

http://www.northwalesbouldering.com/newsitem.asp?nsid=440

Both PMMH and ToD are in the 2004 NWB guide which merely says: from a sit down start at the base of the arête. It does state that both problems share the same start though. Also, there is a pic of Ben Moon on ToD (prior to it being climbed if memory serves me right?) in the guide (page 225) and the low starting holds are clearly chalked.

I can’t remember what Higg originally said for PMMH (it was 10 years ago, and presumably this is where CJD accuses me of down grading someone else's problem even though I've never done it.), but I'm pretty sure that Mick Adams (who did the first ascent) said 7C+/8A for ToD.

 

And some opinion/questions:

Personally I think leg crouch starts as seen in the film don't qualify as pure sitters. It's hard to see on PMMH, but on ToD that is definitely not a conventional sds - the same is true for DR. On a sds the last thing to leave the ground should be your arse. That said some problems are better and more logical as semi crouching.

So, did Mick do the FA of ToD or not? I guess we don't know how he did it originally - maybe he did the shorter version for the camera because it was too hot and he wanted to conserve skin? Mick - what's the score?

In the next guide I will be putting in specified starting holds on certain problems. These three problems look like good candidates where a degree of interpretation of sds is possible.

Funnily enough I was at the crag on the day that Mick did this film. I didn't actually see him climb as his team were moving on when we arrived.

[Pantontino]

There are no names mentioned here at all, as my intention is not to discredit an individual (!),

And by the way I agree with Dave, why not just use Mick's name. It's bloody obvious what you are talking about.

[chummer]

From Nodders blog:

"Also Dolly Rocker is probably more 8a than +, just make sure you start right, left hand in the slot right hand on the arete"

[chummer]

Sorry I meant to say, "from someone's blog who shall remain nameless"

[fatneck]

Mick - what's the score?

Mick's currently in Swizzy and I don't really want to get embroiled in did he/didn't he arguments on his behalf. Suffice it to say that I know Mick (as do many of you) and he's not the sort of bloke to go round deliberately down grading stuff for the sake of it. I think Si may have a valid point about saving skin and the fact that Mick had done at least two of these problems prior to the visit in question. Also, Mick drove to Ysgo for the day from Rotherham based on the positive report I'd given having been there the day before and absolutely nowhere else was climbable! And he's going pretty well at the moment!

Does this paragraph help the situation? Probably not, but as Mick's an honorary scouser and a thoroughly nice chap, I feel obliged to say something in his favour!

[ferret]

why is this even a thread?

chris i dont know you but im pretty sure it would take me little effort to get your phone number and give u a call. Seems to me u could have done the same to Mike.
sick of these bullshit posts, they are the worst thing to happen to climbing in along time, ffs cant we just use the web for positive stuff people.

pls lock this thread ( at the very least until mike decides to reply )

[BenF]

Fatneck has already said some of what I wanted to say about Mick, but I'd like to reiterate his attitude towards always making sure he follows rules and specific starts/sequences etc.  I've spent many an hour waiting for Mick to be happy that he's started a problem in the correct place or done it the approved way to ensure he gets the tick.  However, Chris's points are still valid re: start positions of PMMH and ToD, maybe they should just have been directed via a pm or blog response. 

Since Mick and the person who made the film are away this week, I will just add a little context without intending to speak for either of them.  Mick can respond when he returns if he can remember his login details...  As Fatneck has said, Mick has done ToD and PMMH previously, quite a few times over the past ten years in fact.  Although I was on the beach that day, I was at the other end when Mick did ToD and PMMH but if I remember rightly, on the day in question it wasn't a case of Mick repeating these problems for a film, more a case of the camera was on and Mick happened to do these problems and then the film was put together later.  Mick was doing these problems on the day in question as part of his "warm up" so probably won't have been that bothered about repeating them from lowest start positions, although the film maker may not have realised this when he put the film together later and added the titles and grades.  As for Dolly Rocker, I can't really comment on the start position having not looked at it other than to stand on the top and look down at Mick when he was trying it, but on the day in question Mick had returned to Porth Ysgo to climb it again having previously climbed it incorrectly (wrong side or something I think, but you'd better ask Mick really).

Bit of a storm in a teacup perhaps and I'm sure Mick will explain more accurately when he returns.  Just thought I could add this and maybe close the subject until he returns.  One point of Chris's that really does stand is that we all need to be careful to start problems correctly/follow all rules etc when posting videos on line.  If only to avoid threads like this.

[Bonjoy]

Fatneck has already said some of what I wanted to say about Mick, but I'd like to reiterate his attitude towards always making sure he follows rules and specific starts/sequences etc.  I've spent many an hour waiting for Mick to be happy that he's started a problem in the correct place or done it the approved way to ensure he gets the tick.  However, Chris's points are still valid re: start positions of PMMH and ToD, maybe they should just have been directed via a pm or blog response. 

I'd echo this. In my experience Mick is very fastidious about correct start positions and very reluctant to throw around downgrades, far more so than most boulderers. I think your fire is misdirected on this one CJD.

[BenF]

I think your fire is misdirected on this one CJD.

Although it is fair to pass comment if a video that is openly published shows problems being claimed at a grade that does not match the start position/rule etc.  In this instance though, it is a genuine error in the way the video portrays the climbs and there has been no intent to cheat or misrepresent. 

[nodder]

I dont think this was supposed to be a nasty thread about mike, I dont know the guy but he has always seemed totally sound when I saw him in the cave.  Plus he has an awesome dog, so cant be an evil genuis (they have white cats.)  Somewhere up there there is a comment saying how negative this is for bouldering, it is because thats what everyone interpritated it as.  The fact is that I saw the video and went hey but hang on a second so showed cjd who is a lot more forthright with his opinions then me.  Anyway here  go the points...

1.  Its a hot topic at present, how to define starting holds and what is best.  Sure I will have pulled on higher than I should have done somewhere some time I am sure most of us will have done.  Bit about adding moves to his project to make it as clear as possible - http://martinkeller.blogspot.com/2011_03_01_archive.html  Maybe I should have started matched on the low crimp to make it extra clear.


2.  Some one said are you sure the information is clear about the starting holds, well how can it be without discussions like this?  There is no attempt to discredit anyones climbing or credentials.  If I see a video of someone starting x problem on y holds then thats where I start.  Thats one of the reasons why I care about highlighting this in thcase of dolly rocker, Its already got  a shit (sorry chris) problem on the wall to the right and it doesnt need another vatiation to water down a great line.

I am really sorry if my showing the video to cjd and his ranting had caused anyone to feel that their mate is being held up as a example unfairly, this was far from the original intention. 


Someone else said it should have been sorted out by p.m  personally I think Mr Adams is a wad, I think that most people who know anything about bouldering in UK would know that, I don't think that everything in the world is a personal attack, and I don't see any reason why it should be taken as such.

[BenF]

I am really sorry if my showing the video to cjd and his ranting had caused anyone to feel that their mate is being held up as a example unfairly, this was far from the original intention. 

Yeah, its a shame that this case involves an unfair example, and Mick is an unfair example to take.  But I think it's a fair point to raise this if the video shows stuff being started wrongly, and Mick does start quite high in the video.  As you say, maybe we need to a) ensure more specific information about start positions is available and b) all make sure we go out of our way to do things the right way if we want the ticks.   

[slackline]

Why not comment on the video hosting/blog or contact the person who put the video together and say "Hanging on your caption is inappropriate, it should be starting further back/lower down, in the interests of preventing dis-information is there any chance you could re-edit and clear this up with for example "Problem X from crouching" so that this doesn't become the accepted method of doing the problem"

[Bonjoy]

I am really sorry if my showing the video to cjd and his ranting had caused anyone to feel that their mate is being held up as a example unfairly, this was far from the original intention. 

Yeah, its a shame that this case involves an unfair example, and Mick is an unfair example to take.  But I think it's a fair point to raise this if the video shows stuff being started wrongly, and Mick does start quite high in the video.  As you say, maybe we need to a) ensure more specific information about start positions is available and b) all make sure we go out of our way to do things the right way if we want the ticks.

The OP had a fair point but it was badly made.

[Dolph]

As has been mentioned i am currently in Switzerland and don't want to get involved as I have got better things to worry about. I really don't like threads like this the poster always ends up looking like there just being a bit bitter and over protective and the climber in question ends up with a slur on their reputation. I have always had a deep respect for Chris Davies as he's in North Wales doing his thing and always seems to be able to produce hard problems for the rest of us to go try, i was disappointed to read his comments. I didn't really want to post on this thread as i don't like to pander to it but it seems people really want me to and I'd like to take the pressure off friends who might feel they need to speak up for me.

As far as I'm concerned pr0n Makes Me Horney is a brilliant problem and I have always started it there and every one I have seen has started it like that as it is a comfortable start. The slap up surly is the hardest move anyway?

I can't remember if I started Tide of Dreams a move lower down I think I did. I remember at the time giving Si Panton a detailed account of the sequence i used which he asked for. Not long after Mark Katz repeated the line with this same method I presume. Nowadays I climb it from where I did in the video with a stretched morph start as part of the circuit I do down there every time I visit.

It seems to me the real problem is with Dolly Rocker. On the day in question I went down to try this line I was unsure where it started. I had climbed What it is to Burn which is the right side of the arete. With the sitting move up being the hardest. I assumed notbreally knowing that Dolly rocker went up the left Side of the arete. So this is what I worked. On the day I was aware that I hadn't started the problem properly as I'd done it from a streched start (i could actually pull on from there but bit seems I got lazy as attempts wore on) I was pretty sure that dave would have started lower down as he would not be able to reach. That is why I NEVER claimed to have done the second accent!! The conditions where terrible that day as it was greasy so i was happy with that as a goal for the day. On getting home and checking it out as I expected I needed to start lower and fully intend next time I go that I will climb the problem from the start. In terms of grades then I can we see it feeling 8a+ from the start? Although I did try those moves and I didn't think they would be the crux all and i think i would link in better conditions. This is a great problem and full respect to Dave for climbing the line!!! I think it is a valid point to state this so people watching the vid know that this is not the start but surly a comment on the blog or the vid would have been better? Actually I'm sat next to Owen who has just said that he will happily change the credits at the end.

The third point is that Owen had a bunch of footage and decide to make a little film for the blog. All the grades he quoted were the lowest cited grades to be found in guide books and on the Internet. Interestingly at no point does it say on the web site or on the video that i make the second accent of Dolly rocker or does it say that I particularly had an amazing day at the crag. It is a blog post about getting sick of bad weather and finding climbing at Porth Ysgo. I think it is quite well written by Owen I think and sums up well the feeling at the time. It is a shame though inevitable that people have focused on the video.

One last point I would make is that from a personal perspective I have never really dwelled on grades. They go up and more often they go down, people seem to use them in a political way and others get really upset about them. Personally I climb for the joy of climbing and focus on that. I don't let myself dwell on if someone starts a climb differently or doesn't top out etc. I use grades as a reference point only. After all it's a very personal journey as everyone is built differently and has different climbing styles best just to relax and enjoy the climbing.

[Serpico]

there really is a smilie for everything!

You're not wrong.
 

[c.j.d.]

And there we go - thanks Mick.  As pointed out by a couple on here:  it may have seemed slightly retarded to have gone for the 'no name' approach.  This is because the point of this was not to put down a singular person, and I hope that I did manage to reflect this in my initial post.

Unfortunately [for Mick], the footage/scenario I was using to pin point what is actually a current talking point (quick ticks and false starts, gross/unjustified down grading, did he/she do it etc) was actually him climbing a collection of lines down at Ysgo in succession without actually ticking them properly.  It could have been Santa, but unfortunately, it wasn't - no personal offense meant (and I don't back pedal - ever, as I'm sure you are all aware).

I did actually mention that there is no doubt that Mick is a very strong and talented boulderer.  What I was hoping to achieve is a bit more honesty in the sport.  I'm sure if this had been a certain 'Sam' in the video, you would all have dived in, pitch forks and hangman's noose in arms (Sam, for the record, is currently one of my few hero's, so no miss-quoting please).

Anyhow, thanks for the interest - maybe it'll force a few 'ascents' back into the shadows.  As for just calling Mick - good idea for a nice chat to find out what the score was and to get info on a couple of inspirational ascents (Serendipity etc), but again - this was not my intention here.