[butterworthtom]

I had an email conversation with an EDL supporter it became so funny that I had to share it with everyone. I think it is worth reading to see how shockingly retarded some people are. Here is a link to him if you ever fancy winding up a racist;
 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=671156811
And of course the conversation:
 
Me:
Dan,
I saw your anti islamic comments on my news feed after my friend made a comment on your status. I find it very worrying that the army seems to be filled with people like you who are show racism towards muslims, especially as the army is mainly deployed in islamic countries. I really think you would benefit from stopping reading the EDL propaganda and news published in the Daily Mail. Islamic people aren't trying to take over the country, they are normal people. I have islamic friends and they are in no way harmful. They are some of the friendliest people I know. Admittedly there are extremist islamic groups, but extremism is the minority as Islam accounts for 21-23% of the population of earth. If all those people were extremist, then we wouldn't be having this conversation because we would probably be dead.
By supporting the EDL you are not "Protecting England", you are antagonising the British islamic community and as a result radicalising more muslims. So if anything you are damaging England. I know that you will probably not see reason in this email, but I am asking you to consider the wider implications of the actions you take. If a muslim seems angry towards you, don't be surprised, you support the EDL. The EDL is a racist organisation, there is no doubt about it. I have never found any reason to say anything negative about a muslim (Apart from one who was a bit lazy, but that doesn't make me want to deport him or smash his face in).
 Think about what you are doing. You don't have to be racist, and in case you are in any doubt those comments you made are racist.
Tom
 
Dan:
its not racist, i dont give a fuck what race they are, its the religion i dont agree with. plenty of people i know and are friends with feel the same. how can i be a racist when im good friends with nepalese gurkhas, fijians, africans, pakistanis, indians etc. if you dont like my views dont pay any attention to them. i see your point, and though i dont agree with it, i accept it as your opinion. also my views have nothing to do with being in the army, as i have held these beliefs for a very long time.
 
Me:
It is racist.
Having friends from foreign countries does not automatically exempt everything you say from being racist.
Racism is discrimination against a group based on differences between human traits such as race, ethnicity or nationality. Islam is the ethnicity of people who are muslim. You have made anti-islamic comments, therefore you were being racist.
 
Also it is not an opinion, you were saying that "islam is threatening the uk" which you were stating as a fact. It isn't a fact, it is wrong. Islam is not threatening the UK, and if you can prove to me that it is I will join the EDL.
 
Dan:
bomb attacks in london, attempting attacks on glasgow airport, countless foiled terrorist plots. none of them by jews, catholics, methodists, or rastafrians were they? better get onto edl website and order yourself a t shirt son. i dont agree with any religion as pownall will tell you, catholics in northern ireland are just as bad, but the prevailing threat now is islam
 
Me:
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying there aren't some problems. There have been terrorist attacks, but we have attacked them too. I am sure you are aware that we are at war in both Iraq and Afghanistan, two islamic countries. I believe that a minority of muslims do not think we are at war with those countries, but we are at war with Islam itself. Frankly I do not blame them, especially since there are American soldiers (and probably British ones) killing civilians for fun. Link provided in case you didn't know:
 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/21/us-army-kill-team-afghanistan-posed-pictures-murdered-civilians
 
Whilst I understand your argument, I think that the way you have chosen to respond is not just wrong, but dangerous. The EDL is a violent, racist organisation. Supporting them suggests that you support their aggression, even if you don't take a violent roll yourself. If you really, strongly believe that Islam is a threat you should not support some shameless group of idiotic neo nazis. Violent behaviour is not, and never will be the answer to stopping extremism. How can it be?
If you punch someone, they will punch you back and they will try to hit you harder. We have a long history of taking a violent approach to problems in the middle east.
We started it. We fucked them first when we formed Israel and raped them for oil.
The conflict between The West and The Middle East has been going on for over 60 years in some form or an other. Can you imagine how it must feel to have a foreign military (The Americans) having an almost constant military presence in your country as far back as you can remember. Not only that but American and British companies are supplying your government with weapons to dictators who destroy your people's lives on a daily basis. How fucking hypocritical is the British and American government?
What if the BNP got into power, then what? Deport all muslims? A bit of racial cleansing perhaps? That would be a fantastic idea wouldn't it? Lets piss them off some more by sending them back to where they came from, so their government can kill them with guns supplied from the country which just deported them. Nice solution, really tasteful.
Or alternatively how about offering support to young muslims? Providing them with sports centres, good education and the freedom to follow their own religion. Do you not think that would be more empowering than throwing bricks at them and chanting "Allah is a paedo!"?
Why don't you have try having a polite conversation with a muslim? You might find that he is actually made of the same flesh and bones that you are, and does not actually want to blow himself up in the name of religion.
Stop being irrational. Look around you. Islam is not a threat.
 
Dan:
We pulled out of iraq 2 years ago, and the afghani government invited un led coalition troops to free their country from the threat of the taliban. I've got mates who've died and be severely injured in that war. The same war in which the ANA are on our side. Don't bother replying coz I won't read it. I think ur a do gooder cunt, and I hope for ur sake we never meet. Gutless, spineless twat. You'll be eatin your words in a few years, and you will want maximum aggression to be used by our forces. So wind ur fuckin neck in nobber
 
Me:
Haha. Do gooder cunt. That's pretty funny.
I don't need to prove myself to you. You are a joke. Just like the EDL and the BNP. I can't believe you are threatening me with violence, it just proves my point. I am sorry you have friends that died, but you are in the army, what did you fucking expect? For them to roll over and say "I surrender".
You are an ignorant twat. Grow the fuck up and accept that the real problem is you.
 
Dan:
So you join the army do die do you? If it happens, it happens I accept, but when its to defend the freedom of twats like, makes me wonder why we bother. How about go out and get pissed and have some fun, stop trying to fix the world over facebook u cunt
 
Me:
I'm not trying to fix the world over facebook, I just wanted an argument with an idiot cause it's funny.
I am fucking good at having fun actually, I have even considered going professional with it. What's your idea of fun? Marching around with lobotomised nazis or shooting people? Which is your favourite?
 
Dan:
Shooting cunts like u would be a good start. You've had ur argument u immature piece of shit, now fuck off u cock
 
Me:
Would it help you shoot me if I wore a burka?

[Bubba]

Nice

[Teaboy]

Nice

You think? I read it and considered it a candidate for the log pile. Part of the reason I'm not on Facebook is because I'm not interested in reading the minutae of everyone's every achievement. However, now it seems that it's no longer enough to leave such grand standing there for your mates to see, we now have to stand and applaud Tom's erudition because he's out witted a moron and presumably he wants us to think of him as some sort of Martin Luther King when in fact I'm more put in mind of this bloke:

[dave]

This guy is a bigot, and might be using religious intollerance to add a veneer of respectability to racism, but he's right that Islam isn't an ethnicity though. I could wake up tomorrow and become a muslim without so much as a lick of the tar brush. White maltesers are legit, aint you seen Four Lions?

[Bubba]

You think?

I do. I just like the fact that Tom challenged an EDL supporter using rational argument rather than abuse.

I read it and considered it a candidate for the log pile. Part of the reason I'm not on Facebook is because I'm not interested in reading the minutae of everyone's every achievement.

However, I do take your point and we don't want to start having everyone's FB conversations cross-posted to UKB. I don't think it's really log-pile material though. T'other mods may disagree of course.

[chummer]

I'll be honest with you, I was with you until you said "you're in the Army, what did you fucking expect". Although I agree completely with your general sentiments and understand your inevitable aggression toward him you kinda stepped down off the moral high ground there Butters, military getting killed maybe a product of war but it's not necessarily why young lads and lasses join the Army or any other service...it's really fucking grim whether you agree with war or not, you may have actually made him think a little (unlikely though) had you not confessed to enjoying arguing with him. In my eyes you have just wound him up even more which ain't gonna help the next Islamist or Muslim he meets.

Don't get me wrong, ignorant twats like him stir me inside, I have come across them in my job and I can see what you were doing, i just think you strayed off the path at the end bud.

[butterworthtom]

Yes, I know that some of what I said was a bit inappropriate. I wasn't just looking for an argument initially, but towards the end I did just wanted to wind him up.
Teaboy - I also take your point. It isn't exactly hard winding up morons and I wasn't looking to be viewed as some sort of Martin Luther King. I knew that if I posted this on here, some people would give me some abuse for it and others would find it funny. I am sharing because I thought it was funny, I did not expect my conversation with him to go the way it did. It's not like I planned the outcome. As bubba said, I wanted to use rational argument rather than abuse. It did degrade into abuse, but only cause he abused me first.
With regards to the "what did you expect" comment, I did say that I am sorry that his friends have met such unfortunate outcomes but by joining the army you are putting yourself at a very high risk of getting killed. It was insensitive, but I also think it is true and it is no way of justifying racist beliefs. I hate to stand around and watch organisations such as the EDL continue almost unchallenged. I know people shout "nazi scum" at them, but it isn't really challenging there actual beliefs.

[xelaxela]

imagine how the uk's financial position would look if we didnt give any of the empire back. some of the views of the leftys are just as bad as the right wing. we as a species are naturaly racist is a defence mecanism and getting along is a fairly new idea, this unfortunatly required some brain power to understand.

I always find it funny when people say their not racist because they have non white or domestic friends. this is neirly as bad as saying your not a racist because you hate everyone.

I am a bit perplexed though about how the genral popluation is so open to properganda. we have recently decided that we have save the world and all the opressed people. I think we should save our own first we have enough of our own problems to deal with.

 

[butterworthtom]

Toby - I know that some of what I said is not entirely historically accurate regarding oil. The reason we take such a great interest in middle eastern affairs is usually attributed to oil. I didn't want to cloud the waters of my argument my discussing in which places the people of a country have arguably been in some way screwed because of the presence of oil (for example Iraq and Iran during the gulf war) or done financially very well out of the whole situation (eg Saudi Arabia).

[chummer]

Totally agree that racism shouldn't go unchallenged butters from pathetic racist jokes to organisations like EDEL and I do commend you for your original intent but I strongly think that if we want to effectively challenge such ignorance it really has to be done in a rational, calm but effective way in order to have the best chance to have an impact. If we lose it we've lost it so to speak.

 From challenging people who make racist comments in social situations instead of letting it go because it's easier to do so, through to reporting racist behavior when appropriate in a professional setting, even just reporting the offence to Facebook itself to get the posts deleted.  All these things send out a message that their views are not acceptable in our society. It's the normalisation of such views that brings an air of acceptability to them and so encourages and influences others, even if the original offender is beyond help it can still make a difference. Makes me wonder what this blokes superiors would say if they read his abusive rant on Facebook,with it being in the semi-public domain. The military take such behavior very seriously as they're trying to clean up their image.
Sorry for preaching to the converted Butters, your comment about not just calling them Nazi scum basically sums up all the drivel i've just written..

Winding someone like him up in my opinion makes things worse and he's more likely to try to influence others. I didn't find your argument funny but like you say not all of us would so fair play to ya.

Get me on a different day and I would probably tell you i wish I was 7ft tall and built like a brick shit house so I could just punch his face in, after telling him why first of course.

 

[Sam]

challenging people who make racist comments in social situations

I've noticed the odd "gyppo" type comment, where a similar output about jews or pakistanis etc would cause moderation/puntering/outcry, going unchallenged on here.

[iain_cbr]

I've noticed the odd "gyppo" type comment, where a similar output about jews or pakistanis etc would cause moderation/puntering/outcry, going unchallenged on here.

Is Gyppo unacceptable? to gypsy/travelling folk, i mean? I know that pikey is a derogatory term and as such I don't use it, but i though gyppo was just a mild colloquialism. Could do with clarification, I don't want to be like those people who think that "Darkie" is a term of endearment.

[butterworthtom]

There is obviously a difference between people making racist jokes and people who take part in racist organisations. I know that there is a fine line with racist jokes between humour and something which is actually offensive, and clearly it depends on the context of the situation. Making a sarcastic racist comment amongst friends is usually not intended to mock a race, but to mock racism itself.
I think the reason a "gyppo" comment may go unchallenged is because it is not intended maliciously, and so is not taken as such.

[Sam]

being a gippo and not buying the guide

substitute "gippo" for jew

and

just hope he isn't mistaken for a gypo!! 

"gipo" for "abbo" (or ethnicity of your choice)

still ok now?

Tom, working on you logic the term paki or n**ger is ok if it is "not intended maliciously".  For someone as conscientious as you are, you're straying very close to the Manning/Davidson defence.

[chummer]

Just shows you though, I called Panton a 'Pikey' quite a few times when he was living in his caravan whilst building the house and didn't think there's ount wrong with it....am I a hypocrite or are the implications not as strong? Is it relative to the history of persecution linked to how the word has been used in the past? Fucked if I know, I'm just a theivin scouser come woollyback.

[butterworthtom]

I am not going to try and defend other people's comments as I have no idea what they were. I was just saying that you can't take a comment out of context. You say I am straying very close to the manning /davidson defence however I just feel that it is a sensitive issue and it requires some common sense. I have already made my opinion of racism clear.

[mrjonathanr]

. Making a sarcastic racist comment amongst friends is usually not intended to mock a race, but to mock racism itself.

and

I think the reason a "gyppo" comment may go unchallenged is because it is not intended maliciously, and so is not taken as such.

Well that's interesting. So racist comments are actually post-modern deconstructive satire when said with a sarcastic tone? I used to think they were, erm, racist? Good to know racist comment that isn't intended maliciously doesn't count/harm/offend too (mens rea and all that, yr honour).

Sorry about the sarcasm, but have you really thought this through?

[Bubba]

"Gyppo" and other spellings of the same have no place on UKB. Some things slip past the moderation team but don't think that because of that it's acceptable to use them here.

[aLICErOBERTSfANkLUB]

There is obviously a difference between people making racist jokes and people who take part in racist organisations. I know that there is a fine line with racist jokes between humour and something which is actually offensive, and clearly it depends on the context of the situation. Making a sarcastic racist comment amongst friends is usually not intended to mock a race, but to mock racism itself.
I think the reason a "gyppo" comment may go unchallenged is because it is not intended maliciously, and so is not taken as such.

And the problem with text of course, is that irony cannnot readily be detected

(And "gyppo"? Always offensive. Almost invarably inaccurate, too, as its perjorative use usually encompasses travellers as welll as Roma)

[butterworthtom]

Of course it is racist. I never said it wasn't and I wasn't defending racist jokes.
I was saying that it is the other end of the spectrum from actively shouting abuse and being aggressive towards muslims at EDL marches. If somebody makes a joke and uses the word "gyppo" without malicious intent, it is still racist but does not require the same response as the hypothetical person at the EDL march.
If someone makes a racist joke, you tell them it is out of order and they probably won't do it again.
I imagine if you tell someone at an EDL rally that they are being out of order they will tell you to fuck off.

[ducko]

if im honest, im on a fair few forums and not too comment on anyones point but im a bit tired off hearing similar stories,
various acts of racism happen across the uk, youll always have white people who dont like coloured people and vise versa, its just one of those things you have too accept and i think theres been enough discussions on this topic too drive people up the wall.
just my opinion of course..

[ferret]

i think the "gypo" phrase has become more exceptable because it doesnt seem like the supposed gypsys you meet in england are romany or whatever particular ethnicity they are, more a bunch of profesional thieves that live in caravans, fucked up drug dealers who occasionaly stab people with screwdrivers, harmless krustys who drink alot of cheap cider, or political/environmental activists. Seen/met plenty of people who live in caravans( good and bad) , last time i encountered the peg selling palm reading type was when i was 5, do they still exist?

[butterworthtom]