[shark]

Why have you deleted half my post? This isn't UKC you know.

Pure incompetence - I thought I was in my post. Soz. 

[Serpico]

it won't be as funny if I have to post it again, people will just have to try and imagine how witty and clever I was. and baboo and main Overhang are still both 7c+ so there

[T_B]

I have not done much at Malham, but I don't think Zoolook is 8a+. How can it be 8a+ when The Groove has twice as much hard climbing on it, with a crap rest in between?

50 for 5 is harder than Comedy.

[Paul B]

Do people actually believe that Comedy is disproportionately easy when compared to the other 7C's at Kilnsey?

Its short, its steep and its basic and chances are (like everyone else), you've done it once too many times to be objective.

[nik at work]

I agree Paul, a forum of boulderers find the short steep bouldery 7c easy shocker. Hold the front page...

I have seen a few 7b/+ climbers give it a go and get shut down by individual moves which suggests it would be tough at 7b+, the fact that people who climb in the 8's and do it as a warm up think it's soft is pretty meaningless.

[T_B]

I'm not saying I think Comedy is 7b+, I think 50 for 5 is 7c. And 50 for 5 relies as much on bouldery power as Comedy does, even if the hard bit is at the top, rather than the bottom.

[north_country_boy]

I have not done much at Malham, but I don't think Zoolook is 8a+. How can it be 8a+ when The Groove has twice as much hard climbing on it, with a crap rest in between?

50 for 5 is harder than Comedy.

I agree and disagree with this Tom.....

Zoolook is 8a. Granted, it is hard at the grade but its still a tad easier than GBH.

With regard to the groove, its two 7c+'s with a good rest in between. The Zoolook crux is way harder than anything on the Groove.

50 for 5 is 7c.

[IanP]

Agree that 50 for 5 is 7c, and used to be better when it finished grabbing the chain 
Metal Guru is probably 7b+.
Frankie is definitely 7b+ and not particularly soft at the grade.
Slabculture is better finishing over the roof and probably still 7b+ (well worth 2 stars).

Rose Coronry is the easiest of the 'easy' routes and might be 6c+ but to be honest isn't ridiculous at 7a - most of the short 7a / 7a+ routes at Malham are pretty hard if you limit is around 7a / 7b as opposed to 8a and above climbers warming up / down
Wasted Youth is pretty fierce at 7b now but probaly not 7b+.
Didn't finish New Age Traveller but was very close after a couple of days so probably not 8a and since it's really not very good it would be better to grade it 7c+ and then loads less people would bother with it.
Baboo is 8a (but I have to declare some bias  )

[nik at work]

I'm not saying I think Comedy is 7b+, I think 50 for 5 is 7c. And 50 for 5 relies as much on bouldery power as Comedy does, even if the hard bit is at the top, rather than the bottom.

In that case I agree with you as well as Paul. Although I haven't been on 50 for 5 so will just have to take your word for that bit.

[Andy F]

Slabculture with the Myra Hindley finish is still 7b+, and better for the finish
Wasted youth is 7b and not worth a +
Comedy is much easier than the other 7c's at Kilnsey
The crux on Baboo is 7A after a good rest with some pumpy and balancy climbing to finish
Free and Easy is 7c apparently
Taking the Space 7a+ or 7b?
The Minimum should be in at 7a

[Paul B]

I'm not saying I think Comedy is 7b+

Others are though.

I first did most of these routes when I was fairly young and followed the logical progression through the grades, i.e. 50 for 5 before Comedy and found it a damn lot easier. The only routes I can think of that really didn't 'sit' right would be metal guru and Tragedy (the latter of which has had a grade change?)

[The Aaronator]

Belayed Aaron on this yesterday and he was making some mighty walrus noises...   8a

I don't sound anything like a walrus! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW7uBlzrt2w It felt like 8a and has lost of holds since I first did it.

My two pence worth...

New Age T' - 7c+ (I did it on my second go, which is rare for 8as in this country)
Zoolook - 8a
Comedy - 7c (I still remember how hard it felt when I first did it, and is comparable to 7c stuff I've done in France)
Baboo Baboo - 7c+ (tough I know but you come straight out of a very good rest into the hard moves. Would the crux really be as hard as you say if you put those moves into a bouldering situation?)
GBH - 8a+ (I climbed it direct when I first did it - still 8a+ and I re-climbed it a couple of years ago using the BB escape, easier but still 8a+ and still harder that Zoolook)
50 for 5 - 7b+ (but top end. It has a fairly good rest before the top crux. I think Biological Need is a tad harder)
Le Lapin - 7c+ (top end. I've never been comfortable with the higher grade - it just didn't feel right[!], hence the initial 7c+?8a grade)

Zoolook has always been the epitome of stamina 8a. And I've always understood that Comedy is the epitome of short steep 7c (as New Dawn is for stamina 7c). I think it is important useful to use certain types of climbs as a benchmark for a given grade. Find your benchmarks and work everything else out around them...easy.

[Norton Sharley]

I first did most of these routes when I was fairly young and followed the logical progression through the grades, i.e. 50 for 5 before Comedy and found it a damn lot easier.

Me too, but probably 10 years before Paul B did them and therefore the following comments on the routes already mentioned should be taken in the context that holds might have come off, bolt positions changed and that I'm a short, weak, fat punter:

Rose - 6c - it's not the same grade as Yosemite Wall is it?
Wasted Youth - 7b
Comedy - 7c (you can give it 8a for me)
Pantomine - easy 7b+
Zoolook - definitive 8a back in the day although polish may make it harder now?
GBH  - 8a+ (easy)
Oak - 8a+ (hard), or 8b if you are short according to Mike Owen
Baboo - E7 6c with a rock 3 on the top wall.  7c+ with bolts with easier moves than Zoolook (Shark)
50 for 5 - 7b+ grabbing chain
Metal Guru - easy 7c
Free and Easy - 7c
Taking the Space - 7b
Frankie - hard 7b+

You can upgrade them all for me mind, especially if my first 8a becomes 8a+ 

[north_country_boy]

Is the crux of Baboo really Font 7A? (certainly never 7A+)

[Norton Sharley]

No, but the start of New Dawn / Baboo is?

[north_country_boy]

No, but the start of New Dawn / Baboo is?

Maybe if you are short.

For average height, neither are harder than Font 6c.

[Andy F]

Belayed Aaron on this yesterday and he was making some mighty walrus noises...   8a

It felt like 8a and has lost of holds since I first did it
New Age T' - 7c+ (I did it on my second go, which is rare for 8as in this country)
Zoolook - 8a
Comedy - 7c (I still remember how hard it felt when I first did it, and is comparable to 7c stuff I've done in France)
Baboo Baboo - 7c+ (tough I know but you come straight out of a very good rest into the hard moves. Would the crux really be as hard as you say if you put those moves into a bouldering situation?)
GBH - 8a+ (I climbed it direct when I first did it - still 8a+ and I re-climbed it a couple of years ago using the BB escape, easier but still 8a+ and still harder that Zoolook)
50 for 5 - 7b+ (but top end. It has a fairly good rest before the top crux. I think Biological Need is a tad harder)
Le Lapin - 7c+ (top end. I've never been comfortable with the higher grade - it just didn't feel right[!], hence the initial 7c+?8a grade)

I'd agree with New Age.
Zoolook must be the absolute limit of 8a
Comedy is soft for 7c, just a bit burly. 7b+ IMHO
If Baboo is 7c+, so are MO and Todall Recall as its no easir/harder than those routes.
50 for 5 is harder than Comedy.
Le Lapin is worth 8a, much harder than other 7c+'s at the crag.

[The Aaronator]

I think the route grade voting system on other channel is useful in this debate and to gives a fairly democratic view. For example, Comedy has 107 votes registered and it is unanimously registered as 7c. 50 for 5 has 61 votes cast and the grade is equally split between hard 7b+ and easy 7c.

(Now then, I have noted down the number of votes for contentious routes and will be watching for any signs of obvious rigging)

[Probes]

If Baboo is 7c+, so are MO and Todall Recall as its no easir/harder than those routes.



I agree with you sort off Andy. I found baboo relatively easy, and was unaware of the 8a thoughts at the time. I honestly found it nearly on a par with new dawn! New dawn when tall is really awkward and draining at the roof and resting is impossible, whereas bb you can chill out as long as you like before launching into the top section, v5/6 but your fresh when you hit it.
I wouldnt say bb is the same as todall, todall is pretty cruxy and you hit a proper 6c move after a bit of sustained climbing... 8a for sure.. and a step up from bb.
Thats my lanky verdict.

[Stu Littlefair]

I'd agree with New Age.
Zoolook must be the absolute limit of 8a
Comedy is soft for 7c, just a bit burly. 7b+ IMHO
If Baboo is 7c+, so are MO and Todall Recall as its no easir/harder than those routes.
50 for 5 is harder than Comedy.
Le Lapin is worth 8a, much harder than other 7c+'s at the crag.

This post can be shortened with lossless compression to "I am a thug with no stamina"

[Serpico]

I'd agree with New Age.
Zoolook must be the absolute limit of 8a
Comedy is soft for 7c, just a bit burly. 7b+ IMHO
If Baboo is 7c+, so are MO and Todall Recall as its no easir/harder than those routes.
50 for 5 is harder than Comedy.
Le Lapin is worth 8a, much harder than other 7c+'s at the crag.

This post can be shortened with lossless compression to "I am a thug with no stamina"

 

[IanP]

If Baboo is 7c+, so are MO and Todall Recall as its no easier/harder than those routes.

I agree with you sort off Andy. I found baboo relatively easy, and was unaware of the 8a thoughts at the time. I honestly found it nearly on a par with new dawn! New dawn when tall is really awkward and draining at the roof and resting is impossible, whereas bb you can chill out as long as you like before launching into the top section, v5/6 but your fresh when you hit it.
I wouldn't say bb is the same as todall, todall is pretty cruxy and you hit a proper 6c move after a bit of sustained climbing... 8a for sure.. and a step up from bb.
Thats my lanky verdict.

Baboo is the hardest thing I've climbed - definitely significantly harder for me than Herbie and Mescalito which are the other 7c+s I've done at Malham but I guess they're probably considered soft touches.  I'm tall but weak and found the crux properly hard despite the rest.  Obviously I don't have enough experience to say whether that makes it 8a and interestingly enough I did the Ashes later that summer and can't say I found it much easier, though I find all the steep stuff at Kilnsey hard.

On the BB vs Toadal side of things TimB would say Toadal, which he ticked quickly, was significantly easier.  Of course this doesn't prove anything other than the fact that trying to put an exact number of a personal experience isn't possible.  And maybe that if you want to be an '8a climber' a contentious soft tick doesn't really cut it 

[The Aaronator]

Baboo is the hardest thing I've climbed - definitely significantly harder for me than Herbie and Mescalito which are the other 7c+s I've done at Malham but I guess they're probably considered soft touches.  I'm tall but weak and found the crux properly hard despite the rest.  Obviously I don't have enough experience to say whether that makes it 8a and interestingly enough I did the Ashes later that summer and can't say I found it much easier, though I find all the steep stuff at Kilnsey hard.

On the BB vs Toadal side of things TimB would say Toadal, which he ticked quickly, was significantly easier.  Of course this doesn't prove anything other than the fact that trying to put an exact number of a personal experience isn't possible.  And maybe that if you want to be an '8a climber' a contentious soft tick doesn't really cut it 

Baboo is down as 8a on UKC (http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=12602) and the majority of voters agree...who can argue with that.

[Andy F]

I think the route grade voting system on other channel is useful in this debate and to gives a fairly democratic view.
(Now then, I have noted down the number of votes for contentious routes and will be watching for any signs of obvious rigging)

Hmmm, any routes that you are thinking of in the above situation? Maybe one that has had its grade altered by a certain ex-teacher getting his class to downgrade a route for their homework... 

[Adam Lincoln]

"I am a thug with no stamina"