[dave]

Lets not forget that the "craven tory cuddlers" are the ones giving us this opportunity in the first place. This is probably the single most important thing that's happening in british politics for 300 years. If that means clegg has to break the odd promise on tuition fees and sack some puplic sector workers then thats a pisser for the indiviuals involved but look at the long term picture. If I were him I'd willingly sacrify every shred of personal credibility to get rid of FPTP. It might be political suicide for him if he looks like he's bumming cameron but fuck it, it needs doing. Yeah we've got to put up with the tories for a few years then we can be rid for good, better than looking forward to a decade under the tories every 20 years for the rest of your life.

[Jaspersharpe]

The BNP want proportional representation as they would get some MPs that way. They see AV as an "even less fair" system than FPTP for what they call "smaller parties" (but mean themselves) as it wouldn't actually increase the likelihood of them gaining a seat.

I would much prefer that we had PR despite the fact that the BNP would get a few MPs. As we've seen before, the more rope you give them the quicker they hang themselves anyway.

[slackline]

You'll be a "Yes" vote then 'cause the last election was a fucking shambles when you look at the number of votes cast and compare to the number of seats won, e.g. 36.1 % of votes for Conservative equated to 47.2% of seats, 29% of votes for Labour equated to 39% of seats, whilst for the LibDems 23% of votes equated to 8.8% of seats.  Yes in part this is down to the boundaries for electoral wards and they too need to change, but it wasn't helped by having FPTP.

Some more readng on AV (Wikipedia Article is also informative)

not necessarily Slackers.  Given that the Lib Dems have proved themselves to be a craven bunch of tory cuddlers, why the fuck would I want to increase their share of seats!?  Sometimes you just have to say fuck democracy.... 

See dave's point above, its the best option to get a fairer system of election even if they have to suck cock in the short term, long term it will give them a fairer proportion of seats relative to votes and in turn greater hope/chance of making a difference.....or more simply (yet again)....

what dave said.

[john horscroft]

So what you're saying is this is the least worst option?  Please understand my reluctance because "Vote for AV because it may be crap but it's better than the other crap!" is not the greatest rallying cry of all time.  It doesn't make me want to  in the streets.  I've heard it said that AV would have made chuff all difference at the last election 

...and I genuinely want to be convinced.......

[dave]

Even, and I must stress this is a theoretical conjecture, even if AV was exactly as crap as FPTP (which remains to be seen, I very much doubt it or the tories wouldn't be shitting themselves about it quite so much) it at the very least a "yes" vote shows that as a public we are eager for change and sets a precedent for electoral reform, and hence further future electoral reform.

A "no" vote will basically says we're all pussywhipped compliant stick-to-what-we-know motherfuckers who willingly bow to the tory press and have no capactiy for independent though or appetite for genuine change. I would put good money on a "no" vote meaning we're unlikely to see any other chance for electoral reform for at least a generation. A "no" vote will also entirely shatter any remaining illusion I have about the general british public having half a brain.

[slackline]

How on earth can anyone quantify how the last election would have panned out if AV had been used?  Exit polls ask who you voted for, not to rank them.

Ignore the AV > or < FPTP, and ask yourself whether this example is fair.  25% of votes is in no way a majority as 75% of voters don't support A as their first choice and it means that most of the electorate aren't represented in the way they have been asked to vote.

Party policies are not mutually exclusive and there are some aspects of some parties I like and others that I don't, having to pick one overall to get my vote doesn't seem fair if it means I'm likely to end up in the 75%, so I'd like to cast my vote for my preferred candidate, for simplicity lets say thats C, but accepting that they might not get the most votes I'd then like to nominate the next in-line with my personal outlook/politics which might be any one of the others of B/D/E, but A would definitely be my last choice.

This isn't at all complicated and would end up with people being represented perhaps not quite as they wish, but they might not feel quite so dis-enfranchised as they're second best might win.

And if AV is passed, it might actually mean that for example the LibDems have a greater share of seats, and guess what they've had on their manifesto for donkeys years?  Thats right PR, and with a greater and fairer share of seats there is then greater chance of that getting passed, so as has been said above its not the ideal solution, and its not meant to get you dancing in the streets, but its a start of much needed reform, and to sit back with a short-term view and go "Well I'm not convinced its going to make any difference" is completely ignoring the long-term possibilities (and yes they're possibilities and can't be guaranteed, but they're more likely to happen than remaining stagnant).

Tomtom hit the nail on the head that the referendum should not be about whether we want AV or not, but whether we want electoral reform or not.  If that showed the country did then a subsequent referendum on what form of election the country would then like should be held.

[Jaspersharpe]

Apart from anything else, if all the people I listed above are wanting you to vote against something then what more reason do you need to vote for it?

[tomtom]

One thing that seems to have slipped through the debate is that if you only want to vote for one candidate you can. If any FPTP fanboi's want to, they can... You can stop putting number next to names at any time...   

I want a revolution - only so I can do donuts in tesco's car park in an APC 


PS. Nick Clegg is still a cunt.
PPS. Am I the only person who wondered why anyone wants to FTP in a polling station?
PPPS. Its friday I need a drink.

[slackline]

Treasury concurs that change in voting system won't require increase in public spending

That finally has put a nail in the coffin of the "No" parties main objection, can't have many other straws left other than "we don't like it".

[aLICErOBERTSfANkLUB]

Apart from anything else, if all the people I listed above are wanting you to vote against something then what more reason do you need to vote for it?

But Lord Professor Ray Winstone is in the "No" camp. Don't you trust him?

[aLICErOBERTSfANkLUB]

Duh!

Lord Winston



Ray Winstone.

[tomtom]

If Slackers says YES, I'm following his vote...

(its far better to trust a statistician than a politician in times like this...)

[wiain]

(its far better to trust a statistician than a politician in times like this...)

Fixed that for you.

[kingholmesy]

It's been a while since I looked at the various potential systems in any detail, but my recollection is that Single Transferrable Vote seemed like the best system, based on the fact that it achieves broadly proportional outcomes whilst manintaining the constituency link to MPs.

Nevertheless, I will be voting in favour of AV because it encourages people to vote for the candiate they truely support, without the fear that by doing so they will be wasting their vote because their first preference candidate is unlikely to win in their constituency (since they can select a more likely winner as their second preference etc).

An additional advantage of AV (unlike truely proportional systems) is that arguably it should make it more difficult for extremist parties such as the BNP to gain seats because hopefully everyone other than their supporters will rank them as their last preference, which in effect will operate as an "anyone but the BNP" vote.

[kingholmesy]

More importantly, if this ever appears on the ballot form it will definitely be getting my (first preference) vote ...

Peoples front for the liberation of pink anazazi's

[philo]

also, they should remove what political party they represent on the voting ballots too.  Alot of people sloper would vote for their party only but if they actually had to do some research into the other parties to see who else is a "worthy" vote, then thats got to be worth a lot more?   Im still a "none of the above" voter.

[john horscroft]

Nevertheless, I will be voting in favour of AV because it encourages people to vote for the candiate they truely support, without the fear that by doing so they will be wasting their vote because their first preference candidate is unlikely to win in their constituency (since they can select a more likely winner as their second preference etc).

An additional advantage of AV (unlike truely proportional systems) is that arguably it should make it more difficult for extremist parties such as the BNP to gain seats because hopefully everyone other than their supporters will rank them as their last preference, which in effect will operate as an "anyone but the BNP" vote.

Nicely explained kingholmesy.  Much better than the bullying that Jasper, Slackers et al were using to convince me  I might even vote for it now...... 

[slackline]

Nevertheless, I will be voting in favour of AV because it encourages people to vote for the candiate they truely support, without the fear that by doing so they will be wasting their vote because their first preference candidate is unlikely to win in their constituency (since they can select a more likely winner as their second preference etc).

An additional advantage of AV (unlike truely proportional systems) is that arguably it should make it more difficult for extremist parties such as the BNP to gain seats because hopefully everyone other than their supporters will rank them as their last preference, which in effect will operate as an "anyone but the BNP" vote.

Nicely explained kingholmesy.  Much better than the bullying that Jasper, Slackers et al were using to convince me  I might even vote for it now...... 

Perhaps you missed this post of mine then which is essentially the same point as the first one kingholmesy is making (albeit more succinctly than I worded it)....

Ignore the AV > or < FPTP, and ask yourself whether this example is fair.  25% of votes is in no way a majority as 75% of voters don't support A as their first choice and it means that most of the electorate aren't represented in the way they have been asked to vote.

Party policies are not mutually exclusive and there are some aspects of some parties I like and others that I don't, having to pick one overall to get my vote doesn't seem fair if it means I'm likely to end up in the 75%, so I'd like to cast my vote for my preferred candidate, for simplicity lets say thats C, but accepting that they might not get the most votes I'd then like to nominate the next in-line with my personal outlook/politics which might be any one of the others of B/D/E, but A would definitely be my last choice.

[john horscroft]

Yeah, succinctly, that's the word...... 

[Jaspersharpe]

http://www.voterpower.org.uk/

[magpie]

I've been reading bits and pieces over the last few days to try and get a better view of what AV means and there really isn't a lot of decent, easy to understand information available, unless I have been looking in all the wrong places.

I am leaning towards voting for AV mostly because of what's already been covered; the parties who are against it and the fact that it's a step in the right direction for the system as a whole but also because those shitty posters about soldiers needing bullet proof vests and babies needing proper care more than an alternative voting system are doing my head in.  Why don't they already have them under the current NON ALTERNATIVE voting system if it's so bloody marvelous, not changing to AV isn't suddenly going to magic everything different, is it?    

Also, Jasper and Slackline tend to have similar, sensible views to mine regarding these sort of things so I am just going to do what they tell me. 

[Offwidth]

No brainer. If nothing else the list of the no supporters and the obscurity of their funding means yes is a must. How much less likely is it that will we see "its The Sun wot won it" with AV? The removal of such malignant influences is one of the best positives for AV... it holds MPs much more accountable to their electoral constituency (no such thing any more as a fully safe seat). Imagine how many more conservative MPs would get nervous enough to challenge party whips on stupid stuff like the proposed NHS reforms.

[aLICErOBERTSfANkLUB]

Also, Jasper and Slackline tend to have similar, sensible views to mine regarding these sort of things so I am just going to do what they tell me. 

Have you actually met Jasper?

[Obi-Wan is lost...]

Simple, Cameron wants me to vote no and he's a cunt so it's a yes from me.

[magpie]

Have you actually met Jasper?

No, but he almost makes sense on Twitter and I have seen pictures and he has good hair.