[a dense loner]

just thought i'd point out, since iains probs have been getting some stick recently, BoP starts rh crimp lh thumb sprag, pull on n move into thumb undercut, its not a french start like bransby was doing. this is missing out a very hard move. which must be hard since johnny said bransby couldn't do it. obviously this is ben so he may now well be able to piss the start, but its not french. get that in the guide cofe, plus dan grading it 8a+ is the seal of at least 8b. may soon be time to give things different grades for different methods of ascent, dan did this fast since he's talented n also used a ladder to work the moves. obviously anyone can take a ladder to a crag but most don't. just food for thought really

[carlisle slapper]

Just thought i'd make a few things clear. i repeated BOP using farrars static pull on way (nick got it on video), starting rh crimp, but lh on the undercling with 2 fingers by the time i've rocked onto my RF kind of a 1 arm 1 legged rock over but LF still trails until LH touches the undercling, which is what i'd been led to believe was kosher, the starting holds aren't written down anywhere and on robs video and the stills its pretty hard to tell exactly how Ian starts and off how many pads, no thumbs were needed for me, on the problem, except for sticking 2 up after topping out as its a cracking problem and a really good addition to peak 8's.

It's defo not 8b, in my mind it breaks down as an 8a start (upto the small gastony crimp for rh) into a tenuous 7bish top section.

Comparatively though it seems a tad harder than Partenaire Particulier at elephant (also a big shouldery wall) but no harder than shallow groove (haven't done this as got bad splits but did all the moves) which i reckon is more like 8a+ anyway. So Low end 8a+ would be my experience of the problem based on past experiences. Ned thinks something similar and he was only thwarted by massive split in his index. It'd certainly be 8a+ to properly ground up and would be worth it for the amount of splits you'd get off the LH crux crimp alone.

the easiest way to start it is to french it with a thumb and middle finger, and doing this, if you can match ok (the middle finger makes the match harder), will bring it down to 8a IMO, provided you can reach the next hold. The problem with BOP is that it lacks a decent starting hold for the left (the LH thumb sprag is shit and doesn't exactly scream at you to hold it) so people will be tempted to french it. After doing it i had a quick play and i can also start the problem off an outside edge with LH on the sprag and kick RF upto the good foothold and this actually felt easier than the way i'd just done it, (i briefly contemplated a sitter but the corner becomes restrictive and makes it a bit eliminate). Ians static start is a bit procrustean at the mo, i started off 2 pads, and i'm definitely in the taller group of climbers. It was obvious when Ben got stood up on the flash after french starting into the thumbercut (the only real way he could pull on, making him do a static start would stop him being able to reach the undercling) that he was going to have a job on to get any further as the next shoulder up move is befitting to Ians name in that you get tied into it and cant move so you can either reach the next hold or you can't

Lots of highballs in the peak have a history of height dependent starts, look at careless, Ben and Caff start lower and without the block, yet its easier for them to do so! when something like BOP is so morpho anyway its probs going to be best to let people french start it if they like especially anyone shorter than 6 foot because the next bit is going to be hard enough anyway. That way everyone can at least attempt it with their given climbing style.

leave the ladders alone, i didn't even have mine as Dense'd robbed them, And Ian clearly abbed it so i don't see how using them to find and tick holds and suss the top was in anyway different to abbing it other than practicality.

[a dense loner]

genius, i wasn't suggesting for a minute you didn't do it properly. just that BoP is iains prob n its not a french start. first ascentionist methods used to be respected, i don't care if an obese midget comes along and dances up it naked. we live in england and first ascentionist rules apply. rh on crimp n lh on anything to pull on and do a move into undercut is whats required. for the pedantic i know i wrote lh on thumb sprag in post above but the fact you pull on to do the move is the important one. just cos most other people will come along and miss out hard moves doesn't make it right
yes i had dans ladder so he couldn't use it, however the other sufficed amply i'm sure. also i don't care about ladders like pointed out earlier, but this style should be brought into consideration i think. this is not a go at you dan
you don't see the difference between abbing it as a first ascentionist, putting ticks on and cleaning it, holding geometries, trying a move etc is different to working moves on ladders? that surprises me

[Richard Sharpe]

"you don't see the difference between abbing it as a first ascentionist, putting ticks on and cleaning it, holding geometries, trying a move etc is different to working moves on ladders? that surprises me"

In my opinion working moves off a lader is much harder than abbing a problem, for a start you can't just hold positions off a ladder but you can on a rope. Also stepping off the ladder to try moves is hard at the best of times let alone when the holds are as small as on Bop and the footholds are as bad.
Also I mean no disrespect but climbing something with a "bad" or squeezed in sequence doesn't mean that everyone should follow on doing the same. If that was the case we Would all be trying to dyno brad pit.

[a dense loner]

rich with all due respect to your tiny strong fingers, what are you talking about? i was talking about the first ascentionist abbing to clean etc etc
and bad sequences? its not a bad sequence, ok the national grid system has mostly gone to france but this doesn't mean boulder problem starts have. brad pitt? what? since when have people missed out the first move on that or been given the go ahead by the second ascentionist to do so?
am i losing my mind?

[nodder]

What do you mean losing?

[a dense loner]

fair point well made
you must know what i'm talking about tho dave being from wales where boulders have no obvious starting places on crap lines? you see what we're up against when we've got obvious starting places on good lines. its a crazy world

[nodder]

There obvious to me.  Crap lines indeed, to0 think i let you in my house.   

[Richard Sharpe]

Well Lee I'm just saying sequences change even start moves, brad pit was originally done as a dyno from the start holds, completely changed first move and was only used as a vague Example at best. wasn't saying his sequence was bad as such just sometimes squeezing a start move in  just to make it harder when an obvious start would make a better problem for all, especially when a weird morpho start detracts (seems to be the general consensus)from an otherwise brilliant problem if there is a  start with less rules to be done. ( even if it is French)
An example of this is them at yarncliffe, it's a French start but is still quality, sure it could be climbed without, I've done the start static but it's a better problem for not doing that.
Surly quality is the most important thong here.
Also you can't tell me farrar didn't try any of the moves at all on a rope.

[a dense loner]

need to book you into opticians when i get back rich since you can't see what i've wrote. i'm not arguing about ladders or working things on a rope. i'm actually not arguing about anything, just saying where BoP starts. you've lived with being tiny for yrs don't let BoP lead you to the dark side by missing out moves

[nodder]

yeah if you go into the dark side there is a bald man with a teaspoon on his nose waiting to punish you for all eternity. 

Crap lines. mutter, mutter.

[carlisle slapper]

Next time Ian does a problem it might be nice for him to mention the start holds if he is so particular about it, especially when the options for the lh vary between indistinguishable 5mm edges or an obvious undercling. shrouding things in mystery, secret videos and begrudgingly allowing a few stills ooze hypocrisy when the details come out after its inevitably been repeated. If at any point anyone'd highlighted the exact starting points and stressed how important it was then i'd have started there as it turns out we guessed 90% correct with a slight lh error, maybe some tape to dictate exactly where his left foot was flagged after pulling on would be useful too and a count to 3 to make sure there is no dynamic transfer from the ground and exact pad thickness down to mm. IMO It'd be a way better effort if someone shorter than me did this by french starting than me or Ian doing it statically as the upper section'd be totally desperate, i certainly wouldn't belittle it.

Me and Dave did jellybomb starting matched on the low crimp sat on the floor, does that make Ians ascent sitting on the little block (just heard this through hearsay) and using the bullet hole out right invalid? or have we not repeated it? infact it isn't mentioned exactly where to start that either.
Next time you come round bring your big book of pedantic starts and i'll make sure i have a good read.

[Paul B]

Next time Dense does a problem...

[Johnny Brown]

since iains probs have been getting some stick recently

No they haven't. They had some ascents, followed by some poorly informed criticism of said ascents by yourself.

its not a french start like bransby was doing

Jesus Lee you really are the all seeing eye aren't you? How the fuck do you know this? Have you got webcams in the screes?

Iain is 6 foot 12, but tiny Ben must climb the same moves statically or its a different problem? Get a grip. This will not make it 8a nor 8b, it will make it sensible for people who aren't Iain

Its a shame we can't hear from Iain direct, has he nominated you as his spokesman? A shame if he has, does he realise you don't have shift keys in Chadderton?

Bottom line: Bed of Procrustes is a brilliant problem, probably the most significant on grit this year, and its been repeated.

Good effort to Iain and Dan.

Shut the fuck up to Lee, you don't have to share a van with Iain anymore, get on and enjoy font.

[a dense loner]

eh? how the fuck do i know this, do i have a webcam? no, you told me

i haven't criticised any ascents. no one has done BoP with a french start. i was pointing out where the problem starts so people don't get into mindset of jumping through moves and it doesn't go in the guide as a jump start, which it isn't. read above post re move into undercut is the important one. seems the net is too literal. it is one of the most significant things on grit this year and it was obvious that dan or ned would repeat it fast since they repeat everything fast.

nodder that was a joke about wales

[nodder]

nodder that was a joke about wales

Obviously, i mean you have eyes...

[Fiend]

shrouding things in mystery, secret videos and begrudgingly allowing a few stills ooze hypocrisy when the details come out after its inevitably been repeated.

Wadded.

Also, anyone who DOESN'T take a ladder to the crag is a rank amateur and needs to put more effort into climbing.

It sounds like some of these nu-skool problems should be listened with the various options and relevant grades...

Nu Skool Peak Crimpy Death Morpho Reachfest 8b ***

Climb the obvious feature using an entirely unobvious start point and non-existent holds. Can also be climbed from a jump start (8a) or using the huge fucking jug (6c)

etc etc

[Ru]

Nu Skool Peak Crimpy Death Morpho Reachfest 8b ***

Climb the obvious feature using an entirely unobvious start point and non-existent holds. Can also be climbed from a jump start (8a) or using the huge fucking jug (6c)

etc etc
[/quote]

You jest but that's what we're getting reduced to, especially with some of the more recent limestone problems.

[Doylo]

yeah if you go into the dark side there is a bald man with a teaspoon on his nose waiting to punish you for all eternity. 

Crap lines. mutter, mutter.

Looks like a tablespoon to me Nodder. You can't beat an obvious start, why start on the jug at the back when you can start two moves in eh leroy 

[dobbin]

...i don't care if an obese midget comes along and dances up it naked....

I spoke to Dylan today and he assures me he wont be trying it soon.

Next time Dense does a problem...

come on Paul - get a grip! like that would ever happen!

[butters]

Also, anyone who DOESN'T take a ladder to the crag is a rank amateur and needs to put more effort into climbing.

Maybe if you left the ladder at home you could do longer walk ins... 

[T_B]

This thread is reaching new depths of navel gazing (the bits about French starts and which holds are in on recent Millstone problems). Must seem pretty weird to 99.99999999999999% of visitors 

[shark]

This thread is reaching new depths of navel gazing (the bits about French starts and which holds are in on recent Millstone problems). Must seem pretty weird to 99.99999999999999% of visitors 

I don't know about navel gazing depths - some of the best/funniest posts in weeks.

Now split from 'significant repeats'.

[account_inactive]

...i don't care if an obese midget comes along and dances up it naked....

I spoke to Dylan today and he assures me he wont be trying it soon.

I can confirm that Ben and myself will not be trying this problem or that we shall be going on a diet

[T_B]

This thread is reaching new depths of navel gazing (the bits about French starts and which holds are in on recent Millstone problems). Must seem pretty weird to 99.99999999999999% of visitors 

I don't know about navel gazing depths - some of the best/funniest posts in weeks.

Now split from 'significant repeats'.

That's what was needed. I just imagined ppl coming to the Significant Repeats thread and trying to wade through all that Millstone thumb sprag start weirdness and thinking 

[El Mocho]

tiny Ben

What you saying? Kath assures me I am more than average

[a dense loner]

this has not been a go at you ben, i hope you haven't read it like that. klem concurs you're above average