[T_B]

A petition from 500 climbers isn't really going to feature as a blip on the Red Bull radar but two of their best "extreme" athletes resigning would not go unnoticed in the company.

I would have thought it would be the other way round. There are plenty of other climbers they could sponsor. If the Pou's resigned over this I imagine head office would just think it was some flouncing spat between them and Lama. Whereas a big petition from their target market might actually make them think they had a problem.

Both would be good.

A petition might bring this to the wider media, and it would be helped if some high profile climbers distanced themselves from the brand. It would certainly be ironic if the sponsored/famous climbers dropped the brand!

Someone like Ed Douglas would write an article about it and it would be more likely to get picked up by other media. Then a whole lot of publicity about how "fake" the RB ethos is, could potentially be harmful.

Just need someone to animate a the little "Red Bull gives you wings" character getting flamed Icarus stylee.

I can see it going viral 

[T_B]

Statement from Mammut

http://www.mammut.ch/en/260111_david_lama_patagonia.html

[Will Hunt]

Very weak. A poor attempt to pass it off as nothing.

[mrjonathanr]

Read the last line. it's an admission the mountain WILL be damaged, just not 'for no reason!'.
 So that's all right then.

David Lama has our full support. We have come to know him in our long-term engagement as a sponsor and any actions that he has taken when climbing have never been hasty decisions which have compromised the ethics of mountain sports. It is obvious that he will only put a bolt in when it is absolutely necessary from a safety point of view. As far as possible David will work along the existing route and use the bolts that are already there to secure himself. There is no way that the mountain will be damaged and drilled for no reason!

Mammut statement

[Stubbs]

So are people saying it shouldn't be bolted, or that it should only be bolted ground up?

[Johnny Brown]

People are saying that a) there are too already too many bolts in Cerro Torre, and b) any new routes should be done ground-up.

If he did a free route ground-up but added the odd bolt I don't think anyone would be too bothered. Whereas if he manages to place a load of bolts by ab, and then can't free it due to weather (not unlikely) he'll get crucified.

[Stubbs]

What if he sparsely and intelligently bolts a line from ab up the headwall and suceeds in freeing it? How long would the controversy last? Especially if it becomes a classic difficult route. I really have no idea about the ethical mores if these sort of situations, but its all quite interesting.

[Johnny Brown]

What if he sparsely and intelligently bolts a line from ab up the headwall and suceeds in freeing it? How long would the controversy last?

Any quality judgements will only be made by Lama himself, at least in the short to medium term. The top of Cerro Torre is not a hospitable place; there are probably only three or four days a year when any climbers make it up there. And when they do, they will be rather more preoccupied with getting to the top and back down again before they get wiped out by a storm. Even if he does it and makes a film that makes it look amazing, I doubt he will be lauded for it except by his sponsors.

You have to remember that current climbing in Patagonia is dominated by american climbing culture, and in the US the key ethical debate is not sport vs trad, its ground-up vs rap-bolts. Most of their big trad routes have bolts, what matters to them is how they get there.

There are some other examples in the area - Royal Flush on nearby Fitz Roy was heavily bolted by a german team led by Kurt Albert in the nineties. Their idea was to create an 'accessible' hard free route up the mountain, but subsequent ascents have all poured scorn on its bolted cracklines.

[duncan]

What if he sparsely and intelligently bolts a line from ab up the headwall and suceeds in freeing it? How long would the controversy last? Especially if it becomes a classic difficult route. I really have no idea about the ethical mores if these sort of situations, but its all quite interesting.

Ground-up climbing has always been the ethical paragon for US climbers.  [urlhttp://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=178001&msg=179556#msg179556]Background.[/url]  In the 80s, John Bachar infamously got punched to the dirt in Camp 4 over just this issue.  I'm guessing US (in particular) Alpinists still feel pretty strongly about the issue.

A loose local analogy might be the creation of a sport-route in Parliament House Cave at Gogarth, a venue which, like Cerro Torre, has had bolting controversies in the past.  Surely an high-standard free route would be hailed as a great achievement and a huge improvement over the present partially bolted aid-lines?  My guess is that it wouldn’t last a week.

That is the ethical background, there are other angles.  Because of what Lama’s crew did last year they have to be cleaner than clean from now on and they have not been.  Nor is he suitably penitent.  His statements suggest he knows there is going to trouble but he doesn’t care.  This alone will put a lot of people’s noses out of joint. 

The sorry history of Maestri and the Compressor Route is another factor that makes people super-sensitive about bolting on this mountain.

Finally, and far more importantly in my view, there is the involvement of Red Bull.   They have no interest in the long-term health of climbing in the way that Lama’s climbing equipment sponsors such as Mammut have.  Mammut have offered an explanation of sorts, nothing from Red Bull.  Red Bull don’t know or don’t care what the fuss is about.  They have a history of setting-up media-friendly stunts, reports of trashing the local environment, losing access to sensitive venues as a result and then moving on to the next photogenic location.  I think they have no place in climbing. 

[Probes]

Apologies for my lack of any constructive and intellegent comments.
But, the lad is obviously a little naive (?) but at the same time a complete cunt, needs to show some fucking respect, and needs putting on his arse.

[tc]

In the 80s, John Bachar infamously got punched to the dirt in Camp 4 over just this issue.  I'm guessing US (in particular) Alpinists still feel pretty strongly about the issue.

Here's the history:

Things came to a head in 1988 when Bachar discovered that a ground-up project of his on Cottage Dome had been rappel bolted, and that Kauk's car was in the parking lot. In retaliation he chopped a route on Arch Rock that had been rap bolted by Kauk and Mark Chapman.

An angry Kauk and Chapman confronted Bachar in the Camp 4 parking lot. Kauk says he walked up to Bachar and said, "What gives you the right to take someone's route out?"

Chapman then stepped up and told Bachar that he would "kick your ass" if he ever chopped his bolts again. Bachar replied that there was no point in waiting and to, "Go ahead and punch me."

"I was shocked," says Chapman, "and when he said it again a switch just went off and I hit him."

[dave]

With a temper like that no wonder he shot Lennon.

[shark]

Why else would he be acting like such an arrogant prick?

Because that is who he is?

It occurs to me that it must be hard for an ambitious sport climbing wunderkid like Lama who, where it not for Ondra, would  be one of the very best if not the best. Lama is 20 now. Usually its not until much later in their career that climbers have to go and slog out in the mountains to make a name for themselves.   

[T_B]

My heart bleeds

[Paul B]

Apologies for my lack of any constructive and intellegent comments.
But, the lad is obviously a little naive

I'm less convinced of this now. I read an article yesterday that was with one of his current guides (I think?) which stated the rap-bolting was entirely his own idea. Teaming that up with the "I can take it" comment I don't get a picture of some Naive misguided sport climber.

[SA Chris]

Maybe he's trying to cultivate a rebel bad boy maverick image. Hardly convincing when you don't need to shave yet.

[shark]

My heart bleeds

I was speculating on his motivations for planning to do something that is obviously wrong not exonarating his intended action

[T_B]

The whole thing is ridiculous, but I have to say the Americans only have themselves to blame for continuing with their dodgy ground up bolting ethic. When is it OK to drill a hole? When you are very scared? Or just a little bit scared? If there's an RP but you'd prefer the security of a bolt, is it OK to put a bolt in, so long as it's 'on lead'?

Colin Haley shoots himself in the foot big style with this statement

It is reasonable, however, that Lama is bringing the bolt kit, because on the headwall they will likely attempt a different line than the blank rock Maestri bolted, and the line they attempt will likely be terrain on which any climber would use bolts

[Will Hunt]

I'm not sure its fair to say that bolting on lead doesn't make any sense. It mightn't make any sense to us but we don't have any crags as big as El Cap in our country so our ethics have evolved differently to theirs.

[T_B]

OK, it doesn't make any sense to me. Believe me, I've seen some pretty shocking ground up bolting on alpine rock in the States. Lots of rivet holes made so that the next bolt can be placed whilst the ground up purist stands in his aiders. I think the whole 'ethic' is, let's say, very dubious.

[Jaspersharpe]

I remember reading about the ground up bolting ethic in the states as a kid. It didn't make any sense to me then and nothing's changed.

[Simon Brown]

I remember reading about the ground up bolting ethic in the states as a kid. It didn't make any sense to me then and nothing's changed.

The whole idea of bolting on a big mountain is, to my feeling, anathema. As a young boy 'On Ice and Snow and Rock' inspired me. As a young man it was Messner. For me alpinism is about moving quickly and lightly over technical terrain. It's also about making use of what the mountain offers, if you get to a blank section, go around it; sooner or later someone better than you will come along. And leave as little trace of your passing as humanly possible.

Sadly this kind of ethic appears to hold no relevance for the brusson Lama; the surly appearing little brat from the No Comment DVD appears to have grown only in height. His actions bring disgrace on him, his sponsors and our community in general.

[shark]

OK, it doesn't make any sense to me. Believe me, I've seen some pretty shocking ground up bolting on alpine rock in the States. Lots of rivet holes made so that the next bolt can be placed whilst the ground up purist stands in his aiders. I think the whole 'ethic' is, let's say, very dubious.

It's the  same ethic that spawned the Bachar-Yerian - a route you described as an all-time highlight.

Bad and good climbing ethics are mostly matters of context and opinion rather than absolutes. To see them as absolutes is hidebound and  lacking imagination and quite frankly a bit disrepectful of equally passionate climbers who happen not to share your ethics. Decrying ground-up bolting (bad) whilst at the same time accepting a whole plethora of contrivances that also help you climb a piece of rock as OK (abseil inspection, chalk, sticky rubber, expansion devices, training whatever) has only been arrived as a matter of cultural context and how the game has evolved. This particular divergence between UK and US trad ethics has been mostly influenced by the type of cliffs they have compared to ours.

[Will Hunt]

 

Any bolting on trad ground is a concession to sanity but where do you draw the line on what is acceptable? Without the ground up bolting ethic there wouldn't be a Bachar-Yerian or a Southern Belle or any of the other routes that are iconic but which my specific knowledge won't stretch to naming.

Thinking about it, ground up bolting on Llanberis slate would probably make more sense than bolting on abseil and retaining an element of danger.

[somewhere]

If you'd like to read the following link...
....and if you see fit, sign the petition.

At the time of me posting this there are 921 signatures, mainly from the US, but also from elsewhere round the world. You guys on this site are not daft, so thats why I've bothered to register on UKB and hopefully get you guys on board:

http://bit.ly/foXVJd
or
http://www.change.org/petitions/view/tell_david_lamas_sponsors_to_stop_their_support_of_his_bolting_actions_on_cerro_torre

Cheers!