[cheque]

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1388483/david-lama-and-cerro-torre-again 

[Will Hunt]

Complete 

It has come out today that Lama and crew plan to climb to the top of Cerro Torre following Maestri's bolt line, then rappel from the top and rappel-bolt the best line for free climbing. Lama claims that this is the only way in which he will be able to complete the project within the next 5 years. He also says he can take the sh#t storm that is sure to ensue.

Does he not understand that the reason there is a shitstorm is because his tactics are totally against the spirit of that region. Someone needs to show him this picture:


He's ruining the route. I'm amazed that Red Bull haven't seen the shitstorm and pulled out. Does he not see the logic that this isn't an improvement on the original aid ascent.

 


Very surprised that Mammut haven't dropped him.

[Drew]

A little more indepth on Colin Haley's Blog

Maybe we should organise some sort of mass email to Red Bull, and Mammut, suggesting that his plans are a complete disgrace, and that they should force him to rethink them?

[dave]

What a weapons grade weapon.

[Simon Brown]

For years Mammut have worked to be a respected brand. The recent farce of their proteam visit, the ensuing much ridiculed film collection of clips and their significant sponsorship of David Lama's apparent lack of awareness or climbing skill looks like a potential marketing disaster. At least here in the UK.

Personally I feel his actions are a disgrace and will bedevil him for the rest of his career. At least he's being honest about being an egotistical vandal and not wrapping it up in some pathetic pseudoexcuse of minimising impact. I'd rather he'd stayed at home and learned to be a better climber though.

Maybe Mammut and Red Bull should sponsor a lunch and a chat with Reinhold Messner for him and their sponsorship execs?

[chris05]

Link to a petition created by supertopo:

http://www.change.org/petitions/view/tell_david_lamas_sponsors_to_stop_their_support_of_his_bolting_actions_on_cerro_torre

[T_B]

This whole thing is such a crock from a climbing point of view, I can only surmise that RB are paying him A LOT to make this film. Why else would he be acting like such an arrogant prick?

[SA Chris]

Almost tempted enough to start buying Red Bull so I can stop buying it in protest.

Cunts. No other word for it.

[Paul B]

Presumably he really wants to keep his Red Bull sponsorship (I guess it pays far better than climbing gear companies) and so he has a bit of a dilemma: back down on the Cerro Torre nonsense and probably lose credibility with them or see the thing through to the bitter end and hope that it somehow unexpectedly works out OK for him.

He admitted wrong doing in his last statement on the matter yet he's going down the same path? Regardless of sponsership I'm struggling to see this as Red Bull pulling all of the strings. He's well aware of whats going on and of the general opinion about the matter. Saying things like "I can take it" smacks of arogance and ignorance combined.

Whilst the Mammut pro team climbed some big name routes (a lot of) during their UK trip, they all failed to note the shift in local ethics and attempt to improve on the best style already achieved (to the best of my knowledge). Plus they left a mess, even if they did pay someone to clean it up for them.

There seems to be a pattern to me.

[Grubes]

I am not very up on alpine climbing so heres my questions.

Am I right in thinking the arguement was always whether the bolts should be removed?
At a talk given by kevin thaw over the summer he was asked (by ken wilson I think) if he would be willing to remove the bolts on the compressor route and said he would if he was asked. He did say he would gauge the opinion of the climbing community first.

Do you need a permit to climb/film in patagoina? If so would it be a more worthwhile to approach the people giving the permits out to try and revoke his permits.

[Johnny Brown]

When I went (a few years back now) there was no permit system in the Fitz Roy region. Things have changed though, as they shut the high climbers' camps a few years back. I suspect if there is one it won't be rigidly enforced, Chalten is a small town now and there are a good few paths up into the hills.

Paine is very different, being in a different country n'all. The park has gates where everyone is signed in and out, I think climbing permits were $600 or so. Though this season you've had the added hassle of being held hostage by a general strike over gas prices.

[Teaboy]

The fastest way to get Red Bull out of the climbing world would be for all the climbing media to stop handling imagery with Red Bull logos, regardless of source.

I'm pretty sure RB are playing to the climbing public, pictures of their sponsored athletes covered in logos aren't for our benefit but to be used in marketing campaigns outwith climbing, after all they don't advertise directly in climbing mags.

Last time the Lama controversy was in full spate I was amazed by the coincidence of pious critical articles about Lama being followed a day or two later by a news item on the Pou brothers' latest exploits with numerous photos of them spattered with the sickly-taurine drink's brand.

I don't know if you've seen the latest Climb mag but there is an interview with the Pous and they are pretty critical of Lama's last enterprise on Cerro Torre.

[Teaboy]

I imagine something like this is going on. Red Bull has a big marketing department, full of the sort of people you'd find in similar departments at Unilever, CocaCola, P&G, Daigeo, Nestle, etc. They have a "strategy", which is to sponsor "edgy" sports, to differentiate themselves from Unilever, CocaCola, P&G, Diageo, Nestle, etc. They'll stick with that strategy until it stops working or the head of marketing changes or the CEO changes or ... (people familiar with the weirdness of large companies will know the drill).

This is what strikes me as odd, the people holding the purse strings are probably unaware of Cerro Torre so Lama himself must be behind the idea. Its probably easier to sell them (and the general public) an idea based around the Himalaya or unexplored Tupis in S. America or something in Africa than this so they shouldn't care where or what his chosen project is. By coincidence I am, at this moment, sat in the marketing department in Switzerland of one of those mentioned companies, maybe I should ask them if they are aware of the difference between rap bolting and groud up trad climbing!

[SA Chris]

I don't know if you've seen the latest Climb mag but there is an interview with the Pous and they are pretty critical of Lama's last enterprise on Cerro Torre.

Was goignto mention that - they don't seem impressed, but sadly not unimpressed enough to resign from Red Bull.

[mrjonathanr]

Why else would he be acting like such an arrogant prick?

Because that is who he is?

[Johnny Brown]

Why else would he be acting like such an arrogant prick?

I think its more likely he simply doesn't appreciate much about ethics as far as bolts are concerned. There are plenty of climbers in Europe for who roped climbing means bolted protection, end of. I can imagine in his little world the voices of dissent are coming from a bizarre bunch of old-fashioned idealists who probably don't even climb anymore. A kind of multi-national cabal of Ken Wilsons and JCMs. Ethics can seem pretty arbitrary unless you get thoroughly steeped in them at the right time of life.

[Teaboy]

Does my suggested configuration of said department seem correct?

I can't really comment as I work in IT so I'm only just coming out of my dazed and confused state at seeing so many women in an office and marvelling at the range of teas and coffees available in the oh so trendy coffee bar (there's another one on the floor below themed as an English pub but when I went down there and tried to start a fight, vomited on a table and threw at glass at someone who looked at me funny they asked me to leave so its not as authentic as they probably think).

[Ru]

This is what strikes me as odd, the people holding the purse strings are probably unaware of Cerro Torre so Lama

This blog post by Will Gadd gives a bit of insight into why/how it happened last year:
http://gravsports.blogspot.com/2010/07/lama-red-bull-cerro-torre.html

[Falling Down]

 Here’s Susie – Brand manager for RedBull UK
 

 
And Jennifer – Brand Manager for Red Bull
 

 
 

[Will Hunt]

Its interesting but not unsurprising that the Pous aren't happy about all this. A petition from 500 climbers isn't really going to feature as a blip on the Red Bull radar but two of their best "extreme" athletes resigning would not go unnoticed in the company. But why should the Pous pay for Lama's misdeeds.

[Paul B]

I think its more likely he simply doesn't appreciate much about ethics as far as bolts are concerned. There are plenty of climbers in Europe for who roped climbing means bolted protection, end of.

My experience of Austrian sportclimbing was very different to most other places (all?). I've never seen crags with as many in-situ draws (not on Maillons either). All petzl spirits.
The routes were marked with badges that ranged from a small pebble with the name/grade on it to full shrines that involved things as elaborate as a stopped pocketwatch, small hip-flask sized Whisky bottle and a cocktail stirrer from a male strip joint! Personally I thought a lot of these were an absolute mess.
Certainly their ethics differ from our own by a vast amount even in the relatively small scope of what is 'Sportclimbing'.

[Johnny Brown]

A petition from 500 climbers isn't really going to feature as a blip on the Red Bull radar but two of their best "extreme" athletes resigning would not go unnoticed in the company.

I would have thought it would be the other way round. There are plenty of other climbers they could sponsor. If the Pou's resigned over this I imagine head office would just think it was some flouncing spat between them and Lama. Whereas a big petition from their target market might actually make them think they had a problem.

[slackline]

Are climbers the target market though?

Mentioned above is the fact that images/film is likely used to woo the general (non-climbing) public.

I always thought the target market was those who neck vodka & redbull when out on the lash/in nightclubs (although I doubt whether this demographic would be interested/bothered/swayed by lavish advertising campaigns).

[Jaspersharpe]

It's more "branding" than "advertising".

[Falling Down]

Yes - RB sponsor 'extreme' athletes and other sports to develop brand associations which are then marketed to the consumer.  If you look at the LinkedIn pages, Brand and Marketing are two separate functions with their own VP's and budgets.