[mrjonathanr]

My point was that I didn't purposely try to reduce my BF%, it just happens naturally when I weight train. For me having more muscle seems to keep the BF% down.

Metabolic tissue, innit? TBH I really can't see how an active climber is going to put on significant muscle tissue (ie kilos) unless they get a bit obsessed by the gym in preference to climbing. eg 3kg is a massive amount of muscle gain, bodybuilders sweat blood to add much smaller amounts.

[Stubbs]

Bad example as Woods and Nalle are hardly heavy for their frames. 

You wouldn't call them heavy, but they are far from Bennett-like waifishness innit?

[account_inactive]

Bad example as Woods and Nalle are hardly heavy for their frames. 

You wouldn't call them heavy, but they are far from Bennett-like waifishness innit?

Paul's only 9.  He's got years to bulk up

[Serpico]

I fail to see how someone who has climbed for 10 years at 12 stone will adapt to suit a 10 stone frame over a short period of time I can think of several example of this amongst friends whose grades have increased exponentially when they started to drop weight.

You're talking about a huge weight change - of course they're going to see a big grade increase, I never claimed that this would be lost in a short time period, you know as well as I do that after significant training followed by de-training strength levels don't revert to pre-training levels. I would expect their absolute strength level to decrease with time without the continuing stimulus of climbing with that extra 2 stone though.
Lighter is generally better, particularly for sport climbers - boulderers are generally heavier, but if you're only dealing with a couple of extra Kgs of functional hypertrophy then the fingers will adapt because it's a continuous stimulus.

[Falling Down]

As a build on yesterday's post about absolute strength/power targets. I've also been doing a fair amount of Strength Endurance/Power Endurance circuits and progressions but before I get to that.

To give my personal climbing and training objectives some context, one of my challenges over recent years has been dealing with my work schedule which is usually 50-60 hours a week, usually more when including travel as I'm never at home or in one place for at least three days each and every week (the last time I spent six continuous nights in my own bed was last Christmas holiday) and often find myself in strange places with no access to climbing walls and it's a blessing when I can even get into a gym.  Believe me, if I worked a regular job in the same town I would be at the wall three times a week like I used to in my twenties and I wouldn't be contributing much to this thread at all.    No I don't want a medal or a minature violin and I'm not moaning about my work-life balance, I really like my job (most of the time) and I have a lovely country house in the middle of the Peak but it does throw up all sorts of challenges to a structured climbing training schedule. 

So rather than sitting getting  and stuffing my face every night in a hotel or guesthouse I have to figure out some shit to do that is going to add to rather than hinder my progress on the rocks and overall physical preparedness for the odd surfing trip, bike ride and run. 

If, at the end of a twelve hour day, I can pick up heavy objects and put them down again several times in different ways or run around in the dark in the rain till I feel sick then that makes me a much happier and healthier man than not doing it at all.  The fact that it may help at the weekend when I'm trying to climb is a bonus... (I think it does by the way).

I guess the point of this post if there was one, is that context is important. I'm 100% certain I would climb harder and better if I was doing 4x4's at the local wall on a Tuesday evening rather than Burpee ladders in a Travelodge bedroom in Reading or a dumbell circuit in a hotel gym before work but I'm 100% certain I would climb worse if I didn't do them at all.

Also, as Serpico points out I'm starting to feel my age and want to wring out the best of my body for next thirty years. So a session or two a week over the winter months spent lifting weights and on the rower are probably better for me than repeatedly hanging from the fingerboard.

So.. if it helps there's my justification for weights and cross training which is very different from Rodma's and Pauls and Fultionios' and Serpico's and everyone else who's contributed as we are all in different situations, have different goals and live very different lives.

I was going to rattle off some PE gym stuff but I'll leave that until tomorrow.

[Barratt]

I've never been overly concerned with weight, but reading a comment of 5'10 and 62kgs has me wondering if my weight is a core reason (one of many perhaps) for my long plateau.

5'10
Average build
72kgs
Stuck on 7a for a long time!

[robertostallioni]

Skillz FD. Good post, strange image though.

[Adam Lincoln]

I've never been overly concerned with weight, but reading a comment of 5'10 and 62kgs has me wondering if my weight is a core reason (one of many perhaps) for my long plateau.

5'10
Average build
72kgs
Stuck on 7a for a long time!

For reference, i am the same height as you and weigh 68kg. Less if i am trying to redpoint a hard route.

[Falling Down]

Skillz FD. Good post, strange image though.

I AM Partridge  (as Jasper, Cofe, Stubbs, Slackers, Paul, and every fucker else off UKB who's on Twitter likes to remind me )

[Barratt]

I've never been overly concerned with weight, but reading a comment of 5'10 and 62kgs has me wondering if my weight is a core reason (one of many perhaps) for my long plateau.

5'10
Average build
72kgs
Stuck on 7a for a long time!

For reference, i am the same height as you and weigh 68kg. Less if i am trying to redpoint a hard route.

That's settled then, I'm a fat bastard!

Thanks for the ref, good to know.

[Richie Crouch]

I've never been overly concerned with weight, but reading a comment of 5'10 and 62kgs has me wondering if my weight is a core reason (one of many perhaps) for my long plateau.

5'10
Average build
72kgs
Stuck on 7a for a long time!

For reference, i am the same height as you and weigh 68kg. Less if i am trying to redpoint a hard route.

I'm ~ 6"1 and 70kg and would love to know weight routines for how to put on muscle mass that would be useful for general strength. I often feel lanky and underpowered on short hard sequences! I.E. have to try really hard and run out of steam after a few hard back to back moves.

Don't know if general strength training through weights/arm exercises is the answer though or just trying harder specific simulation problems on a board/roof!

[account_inactive]

I fail to see how someone who has climbed for 10 years at 12 stone will adapt to suit a 10 stone frame over a short period of time I can think of several example of this amongst friends whose grades have increased exponentially when they started to drop weight.

You're talking about a huge weight change - of course they're going to see a big grade increase, I never claimed that this would be lost in a short time period, you know as well as I do that after significant training followed by de-training strength levels don't revert to pre-training levels. I would expect their absolute strength level to decrease with time without the continuing stimulus of climbing with that extra 2 stone though.
Lighter is generally better, particularly for sport climbers - boulderers are generally heavier, but if you're only dealing with a couple of extra Kgs of functional hypertrophy then the fingers will adapt because it's a continuous stimulus.

Thought you would bite

[Dexter]

I've never been overly concerned with weight, but reading a comment of 5'10 and 62kgs has me wondering if my weight is a core reason (one of many perhaps) for my long plateau.

5'10
Average build
72kgs
Stuck on 7a for a long time!

For reference, i am the same height as you and weigh 68kg. Less if i am trying to redpoint a hard route.

I'm ~ 6"1 and 70kg and would love to know weight routines for how to put on muscle mass that would be useful for general strength. I often feel lanky and underpowered on short hard sequences! I.E. have to try really hard and run out of steam after a few hard back to back moves.

Don't know if general strength training through weights/arm exercises is the answer though or just trying harder specific simulation problems on a board/roof!

I'm 6"2ish and weigh around 70-75kg depending on the day of the week and i think if youre lanky you run out of steam a lot more easily as I can do some really hard moves but then get really knackered if  string a few together (dave mcleods book has something about this) think the best solution is climb fast and as you said try problems with a few hard moves in a row instead of just one or two.

Also to reply to the question about dynos if you have tiny legs I have little chicken legs but I can dyno fairly well just keep trying them and you will get better

[Paul B]

I'm ~ 6"1 and 70kg and would love to know weight routines for how to put on muscle mass that would be useful for general strength.

This has as much to do with diet as it does with which regime you apply.

@Serpico - So you're saying that you'd expect my finger strength to decline (slowly) if I dropped back to my 'fighting' weight?

I can completely understand how the missing extra stimulus would result in less beneficial training in absolute terms but when you normalise things against bodyweight I'm not sure that matters, the ability to hang one armed off a hold is irrespective of weight if you can achieve it. Even if strength levels decline as you suggest, you've already noted that they'd remain higher than in the first place. Net gain?

If what you're saying is true then weighted deadhangs would be completely useless because as soon as you stopped doing it regularly, you'd lose the stimulus and start to decline.

[Serpico]

If what you're saying is true then weighted deadhangs would be completely useless because as soon as you stopped doing it regularly, you'd lose the stimulus and start to decline.

They're not at all useless, but isn't that exactly what happens with any exercise?

[Paul B]

Yes. I guess my point was that I'm still to be convinced that you don't end up with a net gain (but maybe I'm missing what you're saying).

[jstrongman]

I found Matt Fitzgeralds book Racing Weight http://www.amazon.co.uk/Racing-Weight-Matt-Fitzgerald/dp/1934030511 a good reference for getting the balance between loosing weight and not affecting overall strength/performance. Basically its all about timing when and what to eat, and if you want to do it properly like everything, its a long term process. 

Oh and i would definitely recommend getting some good scales which measure body composition, body fat, muscle mass etc then you can make sure you are losing the right stuff.

[Serpico]

Yes. I guess my point was that I'm still to be convinced that you don't end up with a net gain (but maybe I'm missing what you're saying).

1.I think we've probably got lost in the detail here. My 2 main points are:
If you train with added weight/intensity you'll make strength gains, but if you stop training, over time those gains will be lost (though not quite to pre-training levels, depending on the magnitude of the gains).
2.There are a lot of strong fingered skinny guys/girls out there who'd benefit from being stronger in the body and who could easily adapt to carrying the little bit of extra weight.

[Lund]

2.There are a lot of strong fingered skinny guys/girls out there who'd benefit from being stronger in the body and who could easily adapt to carrying the little bit of extra weight.

I agree with what you mean.  For point of clarity/pedantry etc. it needs to be a "little bit of extra useful weight" ;-)

Where's the point at which it stops becoming true though; i.e. what's "a little"?  I've certainly seen guys built like gymnasts crushing the shit out of everything - they're proper muscular, so maybe there isn't one?  This isn't science though.

BTW, with regard to chicken legs, it seems maybe height is more important.  I think I'm only 62kg because I have almost no body fat to speak of, and very short skinny legs like a 12 year old.  (I'm not 12 by the way... although I frequently act like it.)

[rodma]

Yes. I guess my point was that I'm still to be convinced that you don't end up with a net gain (but maybe I'm missing what you're saying).

 

You do end up with a net gain, as long as you use your new found strength/power, why would it magically disappear?

I used to use a belt to train with down the wall and I could get up some of the eights, after a week or four of adapting to the extra mass. After removing the belt I could do the eights more easily, so I had to either do laps on them, or try something harder. It's fucking simple, if you don't use what you've just worked hard for you're either going to lose it, or forget how to use it.

[Paul B]

t's fucking simple, if you don't use what you've just worked hard for you're either going to lose it, or forget how to use it.

With fingers I haven't found that to be true which is where the original tangent began.

[rodma]

t's fucking simple, if you don't use what you've just worked hard for you're either going to lose it, or forget how to use it.

With fingers I haven't found that to be true which is where the original tangent began.

You're probably right, I've found that I tend to forget how to pull hard if I don't keep....erm......pulling hard, but I suppose you shouldn't lose recruitment. You definately lose the feeling of low-gravity after only a few sessions, once you stop using a belt (by "you" I mean "one").

[Paul B]

'you' is perfectly applicable  , one week off for DIY and there was a definite gravity increase somewhere around the Foundry.