[petejh]

From the V12 website:

'A group of North Wales activists are collaborating on the production of a new guidebook to the Ormes Limestone area in North Wales. This publication is dedicated to supporting the North Wales Bolt Fund which has played a crucial role in the vast amount of re-equipping work undertaken to-date. There has been a need for a new guide since Rockfax’s 1997 North Wales Limestone became out of print.

The book will be in the shops in March 2011 in time for the spring season. It will provide up-to-date route information with colour topos and a range of top quality action photos. There will also be an historical section, a graded list, access and conservation information, plus unique contributions from climbers past and present who have helped to define and develop the climbing in this area. Two sample pages which give a feel for how the finished work will look are available to download
here: http://www.groundupclimbing.com/upload/members/Testament%20sample%20page.pdf
and here: http://www.groundupclimbing.com/upload/members/Diamond%20sample%20pages.pdf

The guidebook team is made up of experienced and active local climbers, who between them have an extensive pool of knowledge of all the crags in the guidebook area throughout the grade range. The team consists of Pete Harrison, Andy Boorman and Jon Ratcliffe with contributions from a host of other keen locals including Lee Roberts, Chris Doyle, Pete Robins and Simon Panton.

“We’re really excited about the new book, and it has been great to see all the locals coming forward to support the project. The financial boost to the bolt fund will be very welcome and, really, it was the obvious thing to do. Even if you only climb on the Ormes occasionally, please buy a copy as it will help us to keep the bolts and belays in good condition.”

Enthused Pete Harrison.

It is important to note that this guidebook is being researched and written by a group of volunteers who are passionate about climbing in the area – none of the volunteers will be drawing a wage or making any profit from the proceeds of the book sales; all proceeds from the sale of the guide will go to the North Wales Bolt Fund. These contributions will go directly towards the cost of continuing the equipping work of installing marine-grade bolts in place of old expansion bolts which are slowly rotting away in the aggressive salt-water environment.

Last year Lower Pen Trwyn received an extensive re-equipping with resin bolts supplied by the bolt fund, and access to major cliffs such as The Diamond would not be possible without the efforts of the NWBF. Access to Upper Pen Trwyn would also be under serious threat were it not for the work of a small team of volunteers who have been checking and replacing lower-off anchors on over 150 routes including trad, sport and mixed. This work is essential to aid the BMC efforts to maintain access to routes above the Marine Drive.

(NB. If you wish to make a donation to the NWBF there is a clickable donate link on the front page of the North Wales Limestone wiki: http://northwaleslimestone.wetpaint.com/)'

[Paul B]

I've only ever seen the odd shot or youtube footage of the Diamond, those two pics make it look incredible!

(Love the PDF names)

[Adam Lincoln]

Is there room for two guides, what with the Rockfax one too?

[north_country_boy]

Good news! 

I know which one of the two guides I'll be buying.....

[slackline]

I know which one of the two guides I'll be buying.....

Me too, what a novel idea putting the profit back into the bolt fund.

Samples look good, and I look forward to its publishing next year.

[etjoset]

Is there room for two guides, what with the Rockfax one too?

This prompted me to look at the RF website, where it says:

"New Edition - Ground Up are taking on this area although there is no clear date at present as to when a new edition can be expected."

http://www.rockfax.com/publications/books/item.php?id=66

Well done to the Ground Up team for taking this on.

[Pantontino]

Can I just make clear that this is not a Ground Up book. The story goes like this:

A few years back I expressed an interest in doing the North Wales limestone book. Alan James told me that Rockfax had no intention of producing a replacement for the 1998 book which was coming to the end of its print run and that he was happy for Ground Up to take it over.

We then became involved in producing the A55 guide with Mike Doyle (Doylo's dad). Unfortunately there was a falling out and we decided to go our separate ways and Mike subsequently published the A55 guide with another publisher.

My intention then was to still produce a NWL guide (albeit a little further down the line so as to allow Mike a decent amount of time to sell his book and recoup costs), but Alan notified me that Rockfax had had a change of heart and that Jack Geldard was going to produce a replacement for the 98 book. I took the decision to pull out as I knew we couldn't afford to go head to head with another company over what is a low selling book, plus we were/still are very busy with other projects. I'm not sure why the statement you mention was left on the Rockfax site; but it pre-dates the change of plans on their behalf.

A few months back Pete approached me and told me that he wanted to produce a guide to help the bolt fund. He asked for our help and I agreed to support the project.

So, it is correct to say that Ground Up is a significant contributor, but it is not a Ground Up book.


 

[Doylo]

I ve only just found out about this venture and had been contributing to jacks guide. Will be interesting to see what rockfax do as there is only room for one guide and you would have thought that a bolt fund guide would come out on top. I m sure both guides would have done the area justice but if one will help the bolt fund then i m all for that.

[shark]

So, it is correct to say that Ground Up is a significant contributor, but it is not a Ground Up book.

Ground Up with yo-yo's ?

[slackline]

Interesting discussion on guidebooks/bolt funds going on.

Particularly interesting post here

And this is worth linking to and re-iterating here

A lot of businesses benefit from the presence of bolted climbs and free access to crags. It is the responsibility of everyone in the industry to do something towards funding these aspects that make climbing possible. As an individual I also acknowledge my personal role in doing volunteer activity where possible but by necessity, these tends to be restricted to one's local area.

Guidebooks are not a very lucrative target for bolt funding though since the amount of money in a guidebook is tiny compared to the amount of money in outdoor gear and outdoor retail, but that doesn't mean to say that guidebook producers shouldn't do their bit, and this is something that Rockfax acknowledge.

Donating the proportion of a cover price to a bolt fund is a poor way to make contributions since you need to put the price up significantly in order to get a small contribution hence the buyer will be paying £3 extra in order for £2 to go to the distribution chain, and £1 go to the bolt fund. If you control the retail outlets and get them to include their cut as well then you could boost this amount but then you wouldn't be able to distribute the book widely and you would get the problem you get at French crags - nowhere to buy the book.

There are some really good ways a guidebook can support a bolt fund though, as well as the obvious financial donation (not tied to the cover price). Publicity in the guidebook, and raising awareness of what climbers who use the areas can do to help, and making those in the trade aware of their responsibility to support access and bolting.

Rockfax and UKC will be doing this for the North Wales Limestone guidebook and other guidebooks that we publish. Last month we registered the domain http://www.ukboltfund.org and contacted all the uk bolt funds to get their co-operation in setting up a central web site linking the 'Donate Now' buttons for UK Bolt Funds. I am also writing an article on UKC about bolts and we have other ideas about how to continually publicise bolt funds.

Alan

[Alan James, Rockfax]

Just to confirm that Simon's account is correct. I had taken Simon pulling out of the A55 project as an indication that he had too much on to contemplate the NWL guide, and Jack was keen since he knows the area well.

I have now updated the Rockfax web site - thanks for pointing that out. A dusty old web page that I had forgotten about.

Thanks also for quoting my post above.

Alan

[BB]

Alan,

What about registering www.FranceBoltFund.org and www.SpainBoltFund.org?

Seems to me like the rockfax brand could use some good PR on the continent more than here.

[tc]

So now there are going to be TWO new guides to North Wales Limestone competing for our custom?

[petejh]

A lot of businesses benefit from the presence of bolted climbs and free access to crags. It is the responsibility of everyone in the industry to do something towards funding these aspects that make climbing possible. As an individual I also acknowledge my personal role in doing volunteer activity where possible but by necessity, these tends to be restricted to one's local area.

Guidebooks are not a very lucrative target for bolt funding though since the amount of money in a guidebook is tiny compared to the amount of money in outdoor gear and outdoor retail, but that doesn't mean to say that guidebook producers shouldn't do their bit, and this is something that Rockfax acknowledge.

Donating the proportion of a cover price to a bolt fund is a poor way to make contributions since you need to put the price up significantly in order to get a small contribution hence the buyer will be paying £3 extra in order for £2 to go to the distribution chain, and £1 go to the bolt fund. If you control the retail outlets and get them to include their cut as well then you could boost this amount but then you wouldn't be able to distribute the book widely and you would get the problem you get at French crags - nowhere to buy the book.

There are some really good ways a guidebook can support a bolt fund though, as well as the obvious financial donation (not tied to the cover price). Publicity in the guidebook, and raising awareness of what climbers who use the areas can do to help, and making those in the trade aware of their responsibility to support access and bolting.

Rockfax and UKC will be doing this for the North Wales Limestone guidebook and other guidebooks that we publish. Last month we registered the domain http://www.ukboltfund.org and contacted all the uk bolt funds to get their co-operation in setting up a central web site linking the 'Donate Now' buttons for UK Bolt Funds. I am also writing an article on UKC about bolts and we have other ideas about how to continually publicise bolt funds.

Alan

A couple of points about Alan's comments:
'Guidebooks are not a very lucrative target for bolt funding though since the amount of money in a guidebook is tiny compared to the amount of money in outdoor gear and outdoor retail,...'
What Alan means but is is failing to say is 'Profit-making guidebooks are not a very lucrative target for bolt funding ...etc'.
Non profit-making guidebooks, on the other hand, are a very lucrative way of supporting the local bolt fund. As I pointed out to Alan in an email yesterday, you can't argue with simple maths. Take away Rockfax's need to turn a profit from this book and the money could just go back into the local area instead of into a bank account in Sheffield - not that I've got anything against Sheffield 

'the amount of money in a guidebook is tiny compared to the amount of money in outdoor gear and outdoor retail, ...'
Again what is really meant is the profit in a guidebook is tiny compared to outdoor gear & retail. Yet it is uniquely guidebooks, not outdoor gear & retail which are tied to one area of climbs, a fact which Alan continues to try to sidestep by shifting focus onto 'outdoor retail'.

'There are some really good ways a guidebook can support a bolt fund though, as well as the obvious financial donation (not tied to the cover price). Publicity in the guidebook, and raising awareness of what climbers who use the areas can do to help, and making those in the trade aware of their responsibility to support access and bolting.'

In other words there will be a mention on one page that a bolt fund exists, with a website address, and some text saying that we all should donate to it. Genius Rockfax, why didn't someone think of that before?? You're really breaking new ground here! As for 'making those in the trade aware' - a more vague term would be hard to think up. A nice way of saying, 'it's your responsibility not ours mate'.

It's an inescapable fact that, without the re-bolting efforts of the North Wales Bolt Fund, there wouldn't be anything worth writing a new NW Limestone guidebook about.

(These quotes aren't working?)

[Adam Lincoln]

So now there are going to be TWO new guides to North Wales Limestone competing for our custom?

In an area where one would more than suffice.

[north_country_boy]

[It's an inescapable fact that, without the re-bolting efforts of the North Wales Bolt Fund, there wouldn't be anything worth writing a new NW Limestone guidebook about.

I think this is the key point here. If it is to continue, then the more money going directly to the Bolt fund from the sale of guidebooks rather than the coffers of Rockfax the better, surely anyone who appreciates the hard work and commitment of local activists, who  usually give up their own time in addition to making a considerable financial commitment (in addition to the bolts provided by the bolt fund) will have already decided which guide they will be buying.....

[BenF]

more money going directly to the Bolt fund from the sale of guidebooks

Not to mention the usually much more accurate information that is provided by a "local" guide.  RF guides give great summaries of areas and are certainly really useful for first time visits to areas away from your usual stomping ground, but in my experience seem littered with mistakes.  Taking my local area (Merseyside) as an example, the RF Western Grit guide contains (in both versions) a whole host of errors that can only have come from the authors simply not having climbed or possibly even looked at the climbs in question.  At Pex there are lines on topos in totally wrong places (Lady Jane Wall being the worst example) and a handful of barmy grades (admittedly mostly on boulder problems and simply due to an author converting old local tech grades into modern V grades from afar without climbing the problems in question).  At Frodsham there are again some strange topo lines and V grades (along with a flutter symbol) given to 6-8 metre routes that I'm sure have yet to see a lead or solo (Tom's Roof & I was a Teenage Caveman).  Yet again I'm sure these grading errors will have occured due to an author converting an old UK tech grade into a V grade without actually doing the climb, ie guessing.

It would appear that the topos were constructed by the authors taking the previous (out of print) guide and simply converting the hand drawn topos in that guide into photo topos without spending much time at the actual crag, let alone climbing many of the lines.  I can understand that this has to be done if you only have a small team producing the guide, live a long way away and don't have the time to put in the hours of careful climbing and checking... it just won't produce an especially accurate guidebook.  Although I'm not arguing for complete sanitation of climbing, with perfect beta being provided by a guide it kinda helps to know where you're going on a route and what grade the climbing is.  After all, if you don't want that information, you don't buy a guide in the first place.

Rockfax have done a great job in many ways (helping visiting climbers explore new areas is one way) and its cool that a bunch of dedicated people have managed to make a living out of climbing.  However, I for one don't mind seeking out local guides, even when travelling and certainly want more accuracy and love (for the crags and climbs being described) evident in any guidebook that I buy.

[GCW]

Also in Western grit are a few errors in Lancashire that could only have come from converting old (and wrong) topos without looking at the new ones- wrong lines, grades wrong etc.  Local guides will always be most accurate, but as many will know they require a massive investment of time and effort for little (if any) monetary recompense.  This is where RockFax will always win.

[Grubes]

I have the pleasure of knowing I wont be using my western grit for too much longer ...
The Moorland grit guide is actually going to be printed very shortly and on sale in a few of months

[BenF]

Local guides will always be most accurate, but as many will know they require a massive investment of time and effort for little (if any) monetary recompense. 

But all over the world local climbers are willingly producing local guides (its starting to sound like a League of Gentlemen sketch this) and not asking for monetary reward.  Or perhaps seeking simply to ensure that bolt funds are kept healthy, after all how many visiting climbers ever pay into the bolt funds of the places they visit?  Guidebooks are a way of balancing this out.  Climbing maintains its communal and grassroots feel still and people are keen to put something back, aware that they have got so much from the activity over the years.

I'm not against people making a living out of writing guidebooks, far from it (I wish I could) and RF revolutionised the market and the format, I just think we should strive to get the best books written, with accurate information.  And this clearly can't be done from afar after a few quick visits to an area, without truly knowing the crags and routes involved. 

[slackline]

how many visiting climbers ever pay into the bolt funds of the places they visit?  Guidebooks are a way of balancing this out.  Climbing maintains its communal and grassroots feel still and people are keen to put something back, aware that they have got so much from the activity over the years.

Personally I always try and seek out a local guide to the area I'm going or whilst there for the very reason that (hopefully) it puts something back into the local community.

The other reason being that I'm something of a bibliophile and like obscurity (as many such guides will have limited runs so its useful to get a copy whilst one is available).

The Moorland grit guide is actually going to be printed very shortly and on sale in a few of months

Looking forward to that 

[GCW]

Ben, what I meant was:  I was looking at doing a printed Lancs bouldering guidebook but predicted demand/ costs meant it'd probably cost me a couple of grand to do it, so I had to shelve the idea and go for PDFs instead.

[cheque]

The Moorland grit guide is actually going to be printed very shortly and on sale in a few of months

 

[wiain]

Guidebooks are not a very lucrative target for bolt funding though since the amount of money in a guidebook is tiny compared to the amount of money in outdoor gear and outdoor retail, but that doesn't mean to say that guidebook producers shouldn't do their bit, and this is something that Rockfax acknowledge.
Alan

[/quote]

I sympathise with a lot of what Alan said but have to take issue with the 'profit in outdoor retail' comment. Outdoor retailers in the sense that I use the term don't sell guidebooks or climbing gear and can't really be expected to contribute to fund-raising for bolt funds.

Climbing retailers are a different kettle of fish but they make knack all money in comparison. Do V12 or CragX or Nedlesports sustain substantially bigger workforces than Rockfax/UKC, or pay better salaries/dividends? I suspect it is much of a muchness.

[slackline]

Ben, what I meant was:  I was looking at doing a printed Lancs bouldering guidebook but predicted demand/ costs meant it'd probably cost me a couple of grand to do it, so I had to shelve the idea and go for PDFs instead.

You could consider trying the approach Andy Kirkpatrick took with his Driven to Madness publication.