[Bubba]

Whadya reckon? Should a classic problem be returned to it's former glory where possible, or should it be left for a better (wo)man to repeat it without the hold?

And what about sealing crumbling footholds, etc?

[Jim]

Also what about filling in chips, one good example is the etrance boulders on caley crags where in the guide it sez summit like "up the the chipped slab - would be a good problem if someone filled in the chips"
I know some chipped stuff is classic but when stuff is pretty lame surely it should get filled in - is it down to lazyness that it hasen't?

[Kim]

I reckon it's fine in some cases. I think dave said something in another thread about the flake under the nose at BN - if that came off leaving nowt in its place, may as well glue it back cos you can't see it unless you're lying underneath anyway.

[dave]

personally i'd like to see the chips at caley filled in, and also the chip on The Keel. Can probably leave the chips on the buckstone though cos they are historical non-climbers chips.

[Jim]

personally i'd like to see the chips at caley filled in, and also the chip on The Keel. Can probably leave the chips on the buckstone though cos they are historical non-climbers chips.

I'd like to see some of them chips filled in and all, but who is best to do it?
Are some locals gonna get all arsey cos you filled in the chips

[dave]

that probably the reason why no-one has filled in old chips, cos no-one is willing to take responsibility for it - i don't blame them. I suppose the best person would be someone who's done it before and can best match the colour and texture. If summert were chipped in the peak i'm sure somone like allen williams or martin veale might get asked to sort it cos they've filled chips at the stride before.

[Kim]

the problem with filling chips in is they can often look unsightly i guess.

i've always thought that chips which are "historical" but done by climbers are best leaving. i would include the keel in this, but don't know when it was chipped - any ideas? was it chipped to do that specific problem or just randomly?

they kind of become part of the character of the problem eg black chipper at brimham (route i know, but same philosophy)

[Bonjoy]

I personally i think there is a strong case for putting some kind of clear binding agent on some of the terminaly crumbly footholds on grit. Although it could be seen as altering the nature of the rock and therefore out of order, surely it's justified and part of our duty of care to the crags,when the alternative is a huge blown-out sandy scoop (eg that arete at higgar east).

[dave]

that higgar east thing is really unfortunate. and when you're climbing it you have to decide wether to use the sandy bits and make em worse, or use an uneffected bit and risk making that crumble.

i think in that case the best thing we could do is just cement all the scoops flush with the surrounding rock.

[Kim]

I personally i think there is a strong case for putting some kind of clear binding agent on some of the terminaly crumbly footholds on grit. Although it could be seen as altering the nature of the rock and therefore out of order, surely it justified and part of our duty of care to the crags,when the alternative is a huge blown-out sandy scoop (eg that arete at higgar east).

Was thinking about this at the weekend after going to curbar. There's a small foothold in the bottom break of playhard which you (at least I and most people I've seen try it) stand on to make the first move, which looks like it could start crumbling any time. And also altho it's on much more solid rock that dish foothold for your right foot for the first move of walk on by looks like it could go the same way if it gets any more popular.

Problem is how would you regulate such use and stop anyone slapping it on any hold they thought necessary? Could create more problems than benefits...

[dave]

has anyone seen or had experience of that stuff they used daaan saaaarf on southern sandstone where the holds were paggered?

[Bubba]

Some of the repairs done at the Bridestones don't look *too* bad.

Some sort of grit/resin/paint mix?

Ian H might have seen some of the South East stuff.....

[dave]

i think its important for that any work like this must first go through the BMC area comittee to check its ok and get a mandate or something and be accountable for the work - afteral someone going it on their own could come in for loads of stick and its open to abuse.

[Bonjoy]

i think its important for that any work like this must first go through the BMC area comittee to check its ok and get a mandate or something and be accountable for the work - afteral someone going it on their own could come in for loads of stick and its open to abuse.

 Word.
 It's a very delicate issue and would need sorting out with care in every respect.

[Bubba]

I've mentioned on forums before that perhaps the BMC should be looking at this before somebody just goes ahead with it and botches it.

Our gritstone is a *very* limited resource and if repair work is necessary then it should be done sooner rather than later. It was shocking how fast that foothold at Cratcliffe (see link from front page of site) was destroyed once the damage had started.

I did speak to Allen Williams about it briefly and he said that it was an expensive and time-consuming task.

[Carnage]

It does get used a fair amount on Southern Sandstone and does work. I can think of a problem at High Rocks that uses an undercut that used to feel shitty and sandy (although not as crumbly as the Higgar Arete footholds) but a mate painted it up and its alot better and you don't feel the crumbs coming away with your fingers.

Could be worth a try on the Grit but I don't know what long term effect it would have.

[Bubba]

What was used? Just some sort of clear resin?

[Carnage]

I think so.  I can try and find out exactly (but I expect when Ian H see this he'll be able to tell you) as the guy who does the painting is a mutual friend.

[Bubba]

I guess that would work where it's just the surface that's starting to get damaged, but if there's a hole/chip then something else would be needed.

[Carnage]

Spoke to my mate- They've been using just some clear Unibond resin to 'seal' the surface of holds, although they do have some other stuff (he couldn't remember what it was called) that soaks right in and makes stuff much more solid which  I guess could be used on holes.

[Percy B]

'Fixing' crumbly rock has been done extensively on the southern sandstone, but has also been done with great success in Northumberland. I'm not sure how the southern lads did it, but the northern lads used a clear brick stabilising fluid to sort it out. Its basically a clear fluid that soaks in to the rock and sticks all the grains of sand together, but doesn't leave any residue or discolour the rock. The holds on Vienna and The Crack have had the treatment, and are nicely sorted now. This sort of thing is a good idea, providing you use the right stuff, and you know what you're doing. Best off getting somebody in 'the know' to fix things for you. Andy Earl has the beta on the stuff they used in the county.
Filling chips requires a more specialist knowledge of resins, pigments, etc. and should be left to someone who knows the score, and works with the stuff (somebody who works for a climbing wall company would know the score!)

[Bubba]

How does this fluid affect the friction of the rock?

[Percy B]

Its makes the friction the same as the non-crumbly surrounding rock! Obviously, if a hold is crumbling then it is sandy and slippery. Once painted with the stabilising fluid, all the grains of loose rock are glued together, and the hold feels solid again. The fluid soaks into the rock, so doesn't leave a slippery residue behind. It just soaks in and disappears, leaving a nice, usable hold once more. This is what happens on sandstone - you'd have to test it on other rock types to see what would happen......

[Johnny Brown]

...sounds a bit too good to be true I think.

The rock would have to be really porous for it to 'soak in'.

I guess it would only be worth considering for holds that are totally f*cked

[Jim]

I recon that the arete on higgar with the crumbling foot holds needs attention rapid. I doubt it would upset any one if this stuff works like it has at nurthuberland and southern sandstone. If any one has the knowledge I would be happy to contribute to the buying of shit to sort this and other crumbling holds out