[DrBunny]

What problems do people think are easier for the short? To narrow this down a bit, I'd be specifically interested in problems in the 6c-7b range in the Peak and Yorkshire. Many thanks!

(Not so much interested in a discussion about heightism/whether height plays a role, blah, blah. I'm sure there's space for that elsewhere).

[Johnny Brown]

How short?

[DrBunny]

5 ft 3. Pretty darn short, I guess.

[T_B]

http://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=66498

[Norton Sharley]

What problems do people think are easier for the short? To narrow this down a bit, I'd be specifically interested in problems in the 6c-7b range in the Peak and Yorkshire. Many thanks!

(Not so much interested in a discussion about heightism/whether height plays a role, blah, blah. I'm sure there's space for that elsewhere).

If height doesn't play a role why are you interested in problems that are easier for the short? 

[slackline]

I guess DrBunny is short (at a state height of 5ft 3inches) and is interested in problems suited to their stature but doesn't wish to get into a discussion about height and its relationship to various problems/climbing ability in general. 

[DrBunny]

Spot-on, slack line.

[Norton Sharley]

So are we talking about 'normal' 6c-7b, tall 6c-7b or short 6c-7b then?  Or put another way something that's 6c for the tall but 7b for the short?  Or something in between.  I wouldn't recommend any dynos DrBunny and always take out two pads so you can reach the first holds.  Sit starts obviously.  We could just recommend you some decent problems instead that could be anywhere between 6c and 7b and not worry about the grades too much?

[DrBunny]

Ehm, thanks. Again, I wasn't so much looking for general advice on how to climb when you're short, or how to approach grades or anything. Just a few problems that people think are easier for the short. The low traverse at Burbage West is one (thanks, T_B). Surely, there's a couple more?

[Johnny Brown]

I'm yet to be convinced there's such a thing a problem that is easier for the short. There are plenty that are no harder for the short though.

[tomtom]

I'm yet to be convinced there's such a thing a problem that is easier for the short. There are plenty that are no harder for the short though.

From a normal tall persons perspective (I climb quite alot with shorter people..)

Many sit starts - (trying to curl those legs up somewhere)
things with undercuts -
also often I'm (easily) beaten on thin crimpy things where I think shorter people find it easier to get the weight beneath hands...

[Paul B]

just steer clear of anything that says 'morpho' and you'll be fine  The grade range must have been covered before.

[nodder]

Wish I could help but I cant.  Although i think the best thing i ever saw on rock was a short guy at bas cuvier turned up about 2 hours before dark and did everything like it was nothing.  Doubt he was even 5 foot tall.  Awesome he was.  Got one that circe de freak at earl nobody normal is getting up that with that foot sequence, although the first move is easier if your tall, and its not in the peak nor 6c-7b, yep as I said i cant help.  But he was awesome.  That short guy in cuvier.

[superfurrymonkey]

Was it Toulouse Lautrec? 

[Norton Sharley]

I'm yet to be convinced there's such a thing a problem that is easier for the short. There are plenty that are no harder for the short though.

Indeed, just a different grade? 

[Paul B]

La Denmat...?

[ShortRound]

At Brimham rocks around the black chipper area there is an arete called Parrapa the Rapper which is 7b according to the Total Climbing Yorkshire Grit bouldering guide. I can't find the problem on yorkshiregrit.com or ukclimbing but it's definitely in the book and has a very bunched up move to get your feet on the wall after an undercut start.

It was my friend's only font 7b tick and he is 5'3" or thereabouts.   

[SA Chris]

New Jerusalem

Depending if you are Paul B's height or mine.

[tomtom]

New Jerusalem

Depending if you are Paul B's height or mine.

Exactly - perfect for the shorter climber..

[LucyB]

I think I agree with JB  not sure that anything is easier if you're short.
You can certainly climb to your strengths though, and I do love watching tall people on bunched-up sit starts 

I found there wasn't much difference for me in adding the sit start to Brad's Arete at Eagle Tor; unfortunately we can't climb there anymore.

I quite like Sloper Traverse (Grand Theft Area, Stanage) as it seems to fit my frame quite well (also 5' 3"), but would probably be shot by purists as I do tend to crimp the slopers!

Apart from that, I would probably just aim for whatever problems inspire you and forget about the height thing. There are so many other variables to consider that will make something feel hard/ easy for the grade.

[granticus]

But he was awesome.  That short guy in cuvier.

Sounds like J P Bouvier to me...

La Le Denmat...?

Short but not that short.

Victorian Over Mantle - apparently easier for shorties but not in your grade range...  Zippy's footless traverse at the Secret Garden. 

[Sloper]

A friend of mine is 6' 8" (with a plus 3 ape index) and the reason he claims to be a punter is because he's too tall to climb hard.  Ok to be fair he's used other excuses too, but as far as it goes, who can call bluff?

Personally being of limited altitude I'll take any excuse I can.

[webbo]

At Brimham rocks around the black chipper area there is an arete called Parrapa the Rapper which is 7b according to the Total Climbing Yorkshire Grit bouldering guide. I can't find the problem on yorkshiregrit.com or ukclimbing but it's definitely in the book and has a very bunched up move to get your feet on the wall after an undercut start.

It was my friend's only font 7b tick and he is 5'3" or thereabouts.

having seen my tall mates do this,it is not easier if you are short.its a steve rhodes/chris sowden problem neither of them are midgets.

[nai]

Have to agree that most problems aren't significantly more difficult or easier but there are a few that fall into these categories I think.

I find this method of doing Piss much easier than all the faff of matching but taller friends are unable to get their foot up so this could be one that fits the bill:



The Nose has a reputation for being harder for the short but using the sidepull levels the playing field somewhat, may even tip it in our favour:



On the business boulder Jerry's Finish seems to have a foothold in just the right place and also Rose... seems to have better footholds at just the right height.

I didn't have a problem with New Jerusalum either, could have flashed it if I'd paid more attention to my feet, had to settle for second go.

[fatdoc]

reach on the rose is mighty tricky if you are little, I think you're just rather good.

anyone can get their feet up on piss, if they have the strength to hold the finger slopers with ease, nice one.

[i_a_coops]

Victorian Over Mantle - apparently easier for shorties but not in your grade range... 

Just how hard is this? It only says >7C in Peak Bouldering, is it completely ungradeable?! I'm strangely tempted to try it.... 

Also, it says in the guide that lanky people can reach to a crimp, does that still get you the tick? (not that I'll be able to reach! But my friend probably will).

[Wipey Why]

Being a shorty myself I firmly believe that some grit problems are a little easier if you are tall. However, being short is no excuse, there are plenty of short climbers who crank hard. Some of these are even GIRLS! So we just need to pull harder.

For problems that are easier if you are short, the only one I have found to be slightly easier is a 7a at Plantation on the face of the suspended boulder. (Will look up the name in the guidebook later tonight) However, this might be due to the fact I have flexi-legs and can get them ridiculously high.

[lukeyboy]

I'm yet to be convinced there's such a thing a problem that is easier for the short. There are plenty that are no harder for the short though.

I think you could well be right in terms of sequence/difficulty of moves. But it's also worth considering that most shorties have far lighter bodies (by this I mean lighter organs, lighter skeletons - things which are just dead weight for climbing). So a shorty who is similar proportion to an average height (similar build, similarly stacked for their size) will generally have a better strength to weight ratio, allowing them to do harder moves.

[rodma]

I'm yet to be convinced there's such a thing a problem that is easier for the short. There are plenty that are no harder for the short though.

I think you could well be right in terms of sequence/difficulty of moves. But it's also worth considering that most shorties have far lighter bodies (by this I mean lighter organs, lighter skeletons - things which are just dead weight for climbing). So a shorty who is similar proportion to an average height (similar build, similarly stacked for their size) will generally have a better strength to weight ratio, allowing them to do harder moves.

It's the weight of the chip on the shoulder that tends to be the problem. It seems to stop plenty short people from MTFU.

[Johnny Brown]

But it's also worth considering that most shorties have far lighter bodies (by this I mean lighter organs, lighter skeletons - things which are just dead weight for climbing). So a shorty who is similar proportion to an average height (similar build, similarly stacked for their size) will generally have a better strength to weight ratio, allowing them to do harder moves

Bollocks. Why would the proportions be different? And if they are, amongst climbers I know plenty of lanky streaks of piss and stumpy powerhouses, but not many man-mountains or tiny streaks of piss. Except for Bennet and Ru, the exceptions which prove the rule.

[Wipey Why]

...doesn't wish to get into a discussion about height and its relationship to various problems/climbing ability in general. 

Too late now

[Paul B]

Except for Bennet and Ru, the exceptions which prove the rule.

two t's you dick 

[JamieG]

It is interesting that theoretically that if there are no changes in proportions then shorter people should have better strength to weight ratios. This is because, the force a muscle produces is thought to relate to it's cross sectional area which scales with length squared, whereas mass scales with length cubed. Therefore, if somebody is twice the height of someone else but the same proportions. They can produce four times as much force, but they weigh eight times as much. Giving them only half the 'strength to weight' ratio. Whether that actually plays out in the real world is completely different matter, but might help explain the streaks of piss and stumpy powerhouses.

[lukeyboy]

It is interesting that theoretically that if there are no changes in proportions then shorter people should have better strength to weight ratios. This is because, the force a muscle produces is thought to relate to it's cross sectional area which scales with length squared, whereas mass scales with length cubed. Therefore, if somebody is twice the height of someone else but the same proportions. They can produce four times as much force, but they weigh eight times as much. Giving them only half the 'strength to weight' ratio. Whether that actually plays out in the real world is completely different matter, but might help explain the streaks of piss and stumpy powerhouses.

You've put that quite a bit better than I did. I didn't mean that the proportions of short and tall climbers are necessarily different, rather that those of the same proportions (but scaled bigger or smaller) will have different strength to weight ratios. Because of area to volume scaling relationships (what Jamie said). For the record, I'm pretty much bang on average height. So no vested interests in the shorties vs. tallies war. I'm switzerland.

[JamieG]

I too am of average height, so also have no hidden agenda. I just find scaling laws quite interesting. Although the empirical evidence doesn't always back up the theory and there are always exceptions to any rule.

I frequently get out-lanked by my taller friends and then out-powered by my shorter friends. All comes out in the wash I suppose.

Anyway i suppose this is a bit off topic. Some good problems for shorter people i can think of in the grade range are Mark's Roof Left Hand (Gardoms), Gorrilla Warfare (Curbar) and Trackside (Curbar). I've seen them all done by real shorties. Obviously the beta is usually somewhat different.

[LucyB]

It's the weight of the chip on the shoulder that tends to be the problem. It seems to stop plenty short people from MTFU.

Or WTFU, thank you.

I think the proportions thing probably has more impact. As well as being a short arse, I do have a very small span (-3cm, I think). This does cause more problems for me trying problems than just general shortness. For example, reaching holds round 2 sides of an arete is simply impossible for me on certain problems (e.g. Bullworker - not really an arete but I can't hold both starting holds at the same time). I also really struggle on Trackside.

So, sort of back on topic, I think it's very hard to define a definitive 'problem easier for the short' as already mentioned.

[LucyB]

Just read that back, awful grammar 

[Drew]

Moderate thyself! 

I've heard good things about the Sloper traverse (nothing to do with the port-quaffing Tory) for short people. There are lots of problems which have short-person beta.

I'd be inclined to say Crash and Gurn, even though it's a dyno. The crux for me is getting my arse off the floor! My 5' 2-3" friend did Pressure Drop fairly easily, but I think it's accepted as not being 7C (not sure what JB actually thought), more like 7A+.

[nai]

Some good problems for shorter people i can think of in the grade range are Mark's Roof Left Hand (Gardoms), Gorrilla Warfare (Curbar) and Trackside (Curbar). I've seen them all done by real shorties. Obviously the beta is usually somewhat different.

Wouldn't say I find any of those easier for being short, Trackside's never a pleasure, MRLH is just undergraded (although putting the chip back on I'd say the fact that we can't keep our feet on the back shelf makes it no easier for us) and GW plays to strong fingers. 

There are problems that play to strengths and problems that expose weaknesses and similarly there are problems that play to or expose differences in height, the reachy ones seem obvious to identify but we don't seem to be able to agree which ones play to the short due to their being so many other possible factors involved.  Probably a good job really or they'd all be downgraded for us.

[Jim]

having climbed with Dense for a while, it would seem most problems are easier for the short as "it's easy if you have little levers" or "it's easy to put your foot up there if you're a midget"

[JamieG]

Some good problems for shorter people i can think of in the grade range are Mark's Roof Left Hand (Gardoms), Gorrilla Warfare (Curbar) and Trackside (Curbar). I've seen them all done by real shorties. Obviously the beta is usually somewhat different.

Wouldn't say I find any of those easier for being short, Trackside's never a pleasure, MRLH is just undergraded (although putting the chip back on I'd say the fact that we can't keep our feet on the back shelf makes it no easier for us) and GW plays to strong fingers. 

There are problems that play to strengths and problems that expose weaknesses and similarly there are problems that play to or expose differences in height, the reachy ones seem obvious to identify but we don't seem to be able to agree which ones play to the short due to their being so many other possible factors involved.  Probably a good job really or they'd all be downgraded for us.

True fact. None of the problems are necessarily easier for the short, but they certainly aren't any harder either. I.e. I don't think on any of these problems reach is the deciding factor.

[Ru]

I've never really understood the levers argument. Firstly the mechanical advantage of a lever depends on the ratio between the lever length and the distance to the fulcrum so any advantage is determined by the depth of the muscle insertion along the bone vs the length of limb. Secondly the trade off between having deep and shallow insertions is strength vs speed. That's why Orangutans are strong but slow. So if you have deep insertions you will have better static strength but poorer dynamic strength.

[Jim]

so this is why you find mushin piss but the buckstone dyno desperate

[dave k]

Kudos (Hard and/or short) might fit the bill. I have spoken to a few tall beasts who have still not done it, and a few shorter beasts who path it. 

Cube Direct is also easier for the short i reckon

Clearly in both cases many tall climbers have done them, just some taller mates have seemed to struggle.

[ferret]

Some good problems for shorter people i can think of in the grade range are Mark's Roof Left Hand (Gardoms), Gorrilla Warfare (Curbar) and Trackside (Curbar). I've seen them all done by real shorties. Obviously the beta is usually somewhat different.

Marks roof left hand, the crux i remember is keepin yor left foot on as yor a bit stretched on the move before the jug, slightly harder for the short.

Gorilla Warfare, I hav to do all sorts of stupid shit to get from the big starting flake to establishing on the good crimps, from what i remember it involves jumping and catching the hurricane sloper feet off and then heel hook n match, deffo harder for the short.

Trackside, shorties have to use the crap in the seam to reach the second pinch on the arete, might hav an advantage matching foot near hand but then u have a long way to rock to the top, a bit harder for the short and the really tall.

Not really a list of easier for the short more harder/slightly harder but doable with more strength and technique then somebody with average and above height will need to complete it. Basically no u can reach it or u cant moves, but u might need to put a bit more effort in.

[nik at work]

Trackside, shorties have to use the crap in the seam to reach the second pinch on the arete, might hav an advantage matching foot near hand but then u have a long way to rock to the top, a bit harder for the short and the really tall.

From what I've seen those who are truly really tall find this very easy as they tend to just reach past all the climbing to the top. Some would call this cheating, of course I would never suggest that to be the case...

Becoming a jockey seems to be easier for the short.

[gardinrm]

Trackside, shorties have to use the crap in the seam to reach the second pinch on the arete, might hav an advantage matching foot near hand but then u have a long way to rock to the top, a bit harder for the short and the really tall.

When i've seen shorties use this method on Trackside i noticed that they would get the heel in early and then reach for the sloper. This seemed to make the start harder but meant that they were way higher on their heel for the rock over which makes it a lot easier. Don't know what people think? I reckon the difficulty in that problem is more to do with strength and flexibility than height?

[joeisidle]

Some good problems for shorter people i can think of in the grade range are Mark's Roof Left Hand (Gardoms), Gorrilla Warfare (Curbar) and Trackside (Curbar). I've seen them all done by real shorties. Obviously the beta is usually somewhat different.

Marks roof left hand, the crux i remember is keepin yor left foot on as yor a bit stretched on the move before the jug, slightly harder for the short.

Gorilla Warfare, I hav to do all sorts of stupid shit to get from the big starting flake to establishing on the good crimps, from what i remember it involves jumping and catching the hurricane sloper feet off and then heel hook n match, deffo harder for the short.

Trackside, shorties have to use the crap in the seam to reach the second pinch on the arete, might hav an advantage matching foot near hand but then u have a long way to rock to the top, a bit harder for the short and the really tall.

Not really a list of easier for the short more harder/slightly harder but doable with more strength and technique then somebody with average and above height will need to complete it. Basically no u can reach it or u cant moves, but u might need to put a bit more effort in.

Whilst I'm not familiar with the others you've mentioned, as a person of just below average height who doesn't get up much (read: any) peak 7as usually I would recommend Mark's Roof LH for the shorter climber after doing it today. I found that getting to the crimp before the jug was relatively easy with a right heel-toe on the starting shelf which didn't leave you too stretched out and apart from that the lack of weight to carry on the small moves between the crimps is a great help. Either that or I may just like crimps too much...

[Gareth_gear]

Speaking of Parrapa the Rapper at Brimham, can anybody tell me how it's supposed to stat? I did it with left hand on fairly good edge and right hand on the sloper right at the bottom of the arete. I started with my ass on the floor, pulled on and put a heel round to go up with right hand. Is this the 7B way?