[i_a_coops]

So is being able to do a front lever that beneficial to climbing? I ask since I think I have pretty good core strength, and I rarely have trouble controlling swings/cutting loose etc., but I can't hold a front lever for more than a fraction of a second. On the other hand I know people who climb much harder than me and can hold a lever without sweating.

Which leads me onto my big question - how can I get better at levers? I think my shoulder muscles are the limiting factor, I don't think core strength is, but I don't know how to work on this. I can't even hold a front lever position with bent legs as for some reason my thighs cramp up almost instantly! So I don't really know how to build up to it, or even if it's worth putting the time in when I could be climbing. 

Thanks,

Ian

[Paul B]

When I was at my strongest (I need to stop writing that) I was unable to hold a front level, or even an L-sit in the rings for very long at all, (so little so that I was met coming out of the board by a group of people pissing themselves about it), despite this I could swing around on steep stuff merrily and toe down when I needed to etc. Therefore, I'm not so certain that its a pre-requisite.

I think its a good exercise for strengthening the correct muscles but I'm not sure a static hold is that applicable. I've found ice-cream makers quite good in blasting my core back into action recently although it makes you look like a twat. It seems a bit more like holding a swing than a static hold.

Having said all of that Ned could hold a seated L in the rings for a stupendous amount of time and he's a monster.

[GCW]

I can do an L sit for ages, and I'm shit.

Front levers are a different matter.  Like anything though, it's all a matter of balance.  If you can do front levers on jugs but can't hang a 2cm edge you'll still be weak in the fingers and still boulder 6b.

[account_inactive]

Saltbeef can do them until the cows come home.  He's shit but has good tension. Make of this what you will

[Paul B]

Make of this what you will

Maybe you need that to be a doctor of bums? Clench... now relax, Clench..

[rodma]

I'm currently trying to work up to be able to do a proper front lever pull up. ie no kipping, not piked, arms starting straigt and finishing with my wrists touching the sides of my waist.

The training is definately making my shoulders pretty well and is hitting me right between the shoulder blades where it feels really nice and burst the following day 

I'ts pretty hard to say how beneficial it is for any individual, I just like doing it, especially as my hand is still fucked so I can't hang on small edges (small being anything less than 30mm)

[webbo]

all self respecting boulders should be able to do front levers.john gill did them so thats all the reason you need. as to whether they will help your climbing who knows.
the trick to doing them is to have short legs.i had mine cut down to 12 inches in order to manage one, money well spent .

[slackline]

Yes, but Gill was also a gymnast before he started bouldering and I'd imagine that is why he could do front levers and not because of his bouldering.

[shark]

An interesting aspect of front levers is that the bodyweight training pundits like Beast Skills all seem to say that existing pull-up strength is the best guide of ability to perform a front lever, not core strength. Certainly feels like it is more about shoulders/ lats than anything else.

Core strength and stability has many different mysterious (to me) components. Front levers will work one aspect which would be applicable on certain moves such as getting your toe on in a roof or controlling a swing. Standing up using an undercut requires core strength too but is better trained by deadlifting. In both cases you are working a chain where the weakest link is the limiting factor. Logically you could be averagely strong in all aspects of the chain and do a front lever but if you were super strong in all aspects and had say, a weak lower back, that might prevent you from doing one. There may also be an issue on personal bias in the muscles that you tend to engage and those you don't and learning to switch them on may be required - I'm guessing wildly here. Anyway pullup type strength is unlikely to be the limiting factor for climbers though it may be for the bodybuilder types which might be down to strength to weight. 

In answer to the OP if you can hold a 'proper' front lever for even a fraction of a second that sounds pretty good to me. In your position (ie horizontal) I would  experiment with pressing your toes against something to work holding the position longer and because its useful from a climbing point of view - it could against be a suitably positioned chair if you reset the pullup bar at a lower level.   

[i_a_coops]

Logically you could be averagely strong in all aspects of the chain and do a front lever but if you were super strong in all aspects and had say, a weak lower back, that might prevent you from doing one. There may also be an issue on personal bias in the muscles that you tend to engage and those you don't and learning to switch them on may be required - I'm guessing wildly here. Anyway pullup type strength is unlikely to be the limiting factor for climbers though it may be for the bodybuilder types which might be down to strength to weight. 

Sounds like it's either my lower back, or not engaging the right muscles... I'm pretty scrawny, and although it took 6 months of climbing before I could do a pull up I think my strength to ability ratio has vastly shifted in the wrong direction! and I don't have any trouble doing a lever with my toes touching a wall. Very strange.

Cheers for the replies! that website looks really helpful thesiger, thanks.

[rodma]

I don't have any trouble doing a lever with my toes touching a wall. Very strange.

It's not all that strange. Gravity is trying to pull your feet downwards. Even the littlest bit of friction  from another surface is enough to lessen this force.

At my best (years and years and years ago) I could hold a lever for over twenty seconds. I tried to do one with a meagre 1kg ankle weight on each leg and couldn't get much better than about 20 degrees away from horizontal.

[SA Chris]

it could against be a suitably positioned chair if you reset the pullup bar at a lower level.

Do or do not, there is no try.

[webbo]

Cheers for the replies! that website looks really helpful thesiger, thanks.

Similar but better illustrated

there is a better way to get gradual progression.hang up side down toes pointing at ceiling.cross one leg over so your heel is by your groin.lower to front lever when you can hold this you then move bent leg nearer and nearer straight leg postion till you achieve a front lever.
if you can't do a lever with your leg bent,you need to be  on ukc not here.

[shark]

it could against be a suitably positioned chair if you reset the pullup bar at a lower level.

Do or do not, there is no try.

It must be a suitably positioned chair with the pullup bar reset at a lower level

Is that better?

[SA Chris]

Better it is, make sense it does now.

I sense much beer in you..

[shark]

Aye. Mine's a Moonshine

[i_a_coops]

if you can't do a lever with your leg bent,you need to be  on ukc not here.

OUCH!

fortunately I just tried and found out that I can, but there was a horrible minute or so after reading that comment when I felt very rejected.....

 

[andymarshll]

I did a lot of weighted finger board training a couple of years ago, after which i could suddenly just do a one leg bent front lever, a vote in support of the beastmaker assessment.

[Paul B]

I'd hope most climbers could do 15 kipping pulls fairly easily. They're fairly easy when you get the motion in the ocean correct. Realistically I don't think the 10% added bodyweight single pull should be too much of a struggle for people worrying about specifically training levers 

[andymarshll]

Should have read Beast Skills assessment. 

[Barratt]

Stricktly Come Shoot me in the Face has driven me to try a front lever.

Tried these about a year ago and was nowhere near.

Found that I can easily do with one leg bent and hold for a while. Progressing from this by starting to straighten the bent leg is very hard but can just about get there, then quickly fail.

I shall try them more... Now back to SCSmitF   

[Muenchener]

+50-60% bodyweight pull-ups seems an unusual level of strength.

I dunno. I'm a not particularly strong middle aged punter and can pull +27%. I reckon in six months to a year I could get to +50% if I decided to devote time & effort to it.

(I am not under the illusion that such things are relevant to my climbing. I do them because I enjoy them, and because we middle-aged punters need to pay some attention to strength training to stave off the onset of osteoporosis, with which my dad is suffering terribly & I don't want to go down the same road)

[lagerstarfish]

+50-60% bodyweight pull-ups seems an unusual level of strength. I agree that 15 unweighted pull-ups is nothing special for active climbers.

 

SCIENCE says that 15 reps is doable somewhere near 65% of the single rep max, so a climber who can crank out 15 pull ups should be able to do one with an extra 50% of their body weight (maybe more) 

unusually strong my arse 



£35 SCIENCE charge plus £17 basic arithmetic supplement payable @lagerstarfish
I can supply detailed calculations for an extra £40

[Fultonius]

I'm hovering around the 13-15 unweighted pull-up mark, can do around 3-5 reps +25kg (about + 33%). I've never tried to find out my max additional weight. I've done very little weighted pull-up training and can't do a single one-armer.

Oh, and as per the OP, I can't do a front lever and struggle to do it with one leg bent. I'm putting it down to heavy legs, weak lower back and shoulders.

[i_a_coops]

All this got me thinking that I really, really should be able to hold a lever as I spent a lot of time last summer doing weighted pullups and got to about 85% of body weight (I did only weigh 53kg at the time), and I can do a couple of one-armers with each arm. Turns out I can hold it for a good couple of seconds if I lower into it from a tuck lever one leg at a time, I think it was mainly a technique/balance/knowing which muscles to use issue! I had a similar issue with one-arm pull ups.

Now I presume to increase the amount of time you can hold it, you just keep doing it until you get better?!

[tomtom]

OK, this is actually a weighted pull ups question.

In my quest to mtfu this winter (probably  but hey ho..), I have started doing more pull ups recently - also asymetrical ones (jug on one hand, mono on the other etc..) to try and get more strength in each arm. Now, do (or should) I use any fancy weight belt type equipment for doing weighted pull ups - or am I OK with a 1//2 decent rucksack filled with weights - (by half decent I mean one with a good waist/hip belt where I can load shoulders and hips) ? Or am I at risk of puntering myself into injury here.. I've tried (with 15kg) and my back feels a little stretchy/achy (not that unusual for me)...

Tom

[Andy B]

In my past brief forays into weighted pull ups I used a divers weight belt with some weights round it plus a sling with normal weights hanging off it at the front, and had no issues using it like that up to 50kg. It kept my centre of gravity nice and low and I never had (any extra) back problems with that set up, but didn't keep up with them for a prolonged period.

[i_a_coops]

I can't see any reason why taking some of the weight on your shoulders would be a bad thing (although there may be one as I've never tried and don't now much about physiology - disclaimer over). The main discomfort I got was from the weight belt cutting into my hip bones! Which the shoulder straps would surely help with.

I just about got away with doing weighted pull ups from straight arms for a while, but it's definitely very elbow-tweaky. If you have a low enough bar I'd recommend starting from slightly bent arms.

[flyguy]

go slowly i put a breeze block in my backpack and my elbow is now ducked. got a bit keen. 

[tomtom]

I think theres quite a way to go.. I weigh 75kg, and can do them with 10kg extra (plus backpack and gubbins) but not 14..  I'll be fine for a bit I think!

[Paul B]

I can't see any reason why taking some of the weight on your shoulders would be a bad thing

The straps impinge the movement of the shoulder blades. I've used various setups, the best was probably the old harness with leg loops removed. Similarily once you get to large weights (you need to be helped up because your legs are that feeble and) the harness will try to sever your lower body from your torso.

Is there a need for weighted two armers rather than assisted one-armers? (plus the usual caveats)

[i_a_coops]

 

I spent ages doing weighted 2-armers and I'm still a punter! 

[Nibile]

I always used a normal weightlifting belt with a cord to attach the (enormous amount of) weights.
it's ESSENTIAL to place the (enormous amount of) weights on the back and not in front. if you place them in front:
- you may become sterile (not proven)
- they will increase the pelvic anteversion and they will hurt your lower back (proven)

[Krank]

- they will increase the pelvic anteversion and they will hurt your lower back (proven)

good knowledge, nice one.

[Nibile]

sadly it was an experience before becoming a knowledge...