[shark]

Welcome JCM  have a wad point.

I don't even know where Carn Vellan is so I'm ducking out of this one.

[SA Chris]

Should his reference to someone be deleted though?

[slackline]

jcm == johncoxmysteriously???

If so I like your analogies...

Last time I pointed out that bolters were like the IRA because they only have to win once Mick banned me, so I won't do that again. Let me make it clear; they're not at all like the IRA, even though they do only have to win once. You'll have to think of your own simile.

Welcome to UKB 

[wiain]

Should his reference to someone be deleted though?

But he only referred to The Edwardses and Mick Ryan by name. Surely at least one of them is a girl? Do we have to give exactly equal weighting to mentions of boys and girls?

[BB]

I don't know if I should wad him for the constructive comments or punter him for the tone in which they were delivered! 

[Jaspersharpe]

One of each?

[Stu Littlefair]

So you people want to put bolts into Carn Vellan again.

I'm losing track of this TBH; aren't they still in some routes and 'we people' want them to stay, and put them back in the chopped routes as well.

Totally agree with all your points. Some additional comments:

If the condition for rebolting was that the bolters cleaned up the "Medwards Mess", as we should call the chopped bolts from now on, I imagine they would do so tomorrow.

You request a positive argument for bolting Carn Vellan. The best positive argument for bolting is that people like bolted climbs. Sport routes are fun, and we enjoy doing them. Some sport routes are especially double-fun. These are hard, and steep. Like the routes at Carn Vellan. Routes like this are often more fun than if they're de-bolted. So, here's this cliff which isn't currently being used for anything where we can enjoy some of the best sport routes imaginable. We'd like to bolt it please.

It's a simple argument; it argues for optimal use of a scarce resource so that everyone in climbing's broad church can have as much fun as possible, right now. It usually doesn't carry any weight with 'people like you' because I think it's exactly this idea that climbing can be carefree, fun and physical that causes the problem. Climbing, as 'you people' see it, is really about personal adventure and respect for the wilderness, and nutting up, or shutting up. So I don't see my argument gaining much traction.

The only other positive argument I can think of is that hard sport climbing raises standards in trad climbing; a point which is rammed home by the recent performances of McHaffie, Robbins, Bransby et al. However, the same end-point could be achieved by building a better climbing wall down there, and nothing gets bolted in the process. So I doubt that argument's a winner, either.

Looks like we won't get to bolt Carn Vellan.

Bum.

[SA Chris]

jcm == johncoxmysteriously???

Now a chess player: never climb

Should fit right in. Welcome jcm.

[tregiffian]

Didn`t I hear that a Czech climber on the International Meet got most of  :wall:the way up a bolted route free? Remember Munich Climb and Wellington Crack.

[account_inactive]

Didn`t I hear that a Czech climber on the International Meet got most of  :wall:the way up a bolted route free? Remember Munich Climb and Wellington Crack.

Congratulations on missing the point

[Sloper]

jcm == johncoxmysteriously???

Now a chess player: never climb

Should fit right in. Welcome jcm.

As an Old Etonian New Labour tub thumper John will certainly fit in.  Having said all that I have allways enjoyed John's company and think that he's really just in the closet  when it comes to politics.

[Andy W]

  I think jcm got bored on UKC as no one will argue with him anymore, so he's tried his luck over here.

"So you people want to put bolts into Carn Vellan again."  This says it all really, he doesn't read, nor listen, nor think. More or less half of all the people who attended the BMC meeting went to the pub afterwards, chatted, drank a pint and more or less realised that the 'oppositional' stance, portrayed and encouraged in the UK climbing article and the 'for or 'against' argument encouraged by the mechanisms of the BMC meeting didn't reflect the reality. Namely that there was much more agreement than disagreement. Those in the pub also felt that nothing much was going to change in a hurry, ie no one is actually planning at this stage to do anything and that a bit more talking might also be a good thing.

[A Jooser]

Didn`t I hear that a Czech climber on the International Meet got most of  :wall:the way up a bolted route free? Remember Munich Climb and Wellington Crack.

Italian climber Matteo Della Bordella nearly flashed Bridge of Sies on the BMC International Meet - I think one or two other guys also got close . But Bridge of Sies wasn't originally a sport route. It was first climbed with peg protection at E6; these pegs were later replaced with two bolts (with the FA's permission) by the chap who made the second ascent.

I've been led to believe the guy who put the route up is happy for it to be bolted again - it's better as a sport route apparently!

[granticus]

You request a positive argument for bolting Carn Vellan. The best positive argument for bolting is that people like bolted climbs. Sport routes are fun, and we enjoy doing them. Some sport routes are especially double-fun. These are hard, and steep. Like the routes at Carn Vellan. Routes like this are often more fun than if they're de-bolted. So, here's this cliff which isn't currently being used for anything where we can enjoy some of the best sport routes imaginable. We'd like to bolt it please.

Welcome JCM ... 5 wad points for one post ???  I know the above will not convince you but it is probably the most honest justification of bolts at CV that I've read.  I will also guarantee that bolts in CV will not spoil your summer hols tradding it up in Penwith (I can't guarantee that chipped holds, sica and drilled placements won't though).  There are some untouched parts of Cornwall though try here http://www.porthemmet.com/

[jcm]

>This says it all really, he doesn't read, nor listen, nor think

OK, fuck you. Maybe I will take the trouble to drive down and vote against you. And maybe I will chop your bolts if you do put them in. If this is the best you can do, you don't deserve to win this debate. What are you, like, 16?

[jcm]

I'm surprised you totally agree with all my points, Stu, since at least one of them was aimed at you.

When I read....

"The climbers who took the bolts out originally have for too long intimately connected the bolting of Carn Vellan with the actions of Mark and Rowland Edwards and simply can't dissociate the two issues any more."

....it makes my hackles rise. I could disassociate them if I wanted, but I don't see why I should. For the reasons I gave, I don't think it would be sensible. Lecturing me or the climbers who took the bolts out originally isn't going to help.

As to the rest, though, I agree, although you could make a better case than that. You could get someone - if there is anyone - who was on the routes before they were chopped to say how great they were and how there wasn't any chipping and sika nonsense (assuming that's true). You could stress how many more local climbers there are now than there were in 1994 who could reasonably tackle such grades. You could pay some lip service to the idea that you appreciate this shouldn't be the thin end of the wedge (rather than ridiculing that concern in the customary fashion). You could stress the uniqueness in the UK of the routes that would be created, and how they'd be not just local but national attractions. You could point out that on one view Rewind was the very first E10 and what a pity it would be for it to be lost to history entirely. You could point out more politely (what I suspect is true) that if the Edwardses had never existed and the crag were discovered now for the first time bolting it would cause much less controversy.

I know you personally did many of these things in 2005. But to judge from Andy W's performance, not enough people have learned from you.

As to it being a condition that bolters clean up the Medwards Mess, that would be a ridiculous thing for me to say. I still think it would help the cause if those who want the routes rebolted did accept that the chopping was justified and instead of blaming the choppers went and cleaned the place up. But that doesn't seem very likely given AW's sense of entitlement.

[jcm]

>what cliffs are suitable for bolts in your opinion? Apart from none. And why?

That's not the point; I wasn't talking about what my opinion is; I was talking about how we should determine whose opinion should prevail. And in my opinion we presently have, to coin a phrase, the worst system imaginable except for all the others that have been tried.

Placing bolts is like development; it converts what is presently there into an artificial resource. The climbing community decides what should happen at the moment in very much the same way as society grants planning permission, local meetings decide based on how many people want what, which eminent backers each side has, and so on, within a broad framework agreed in some loose way at a national level. It isn't always possible to perceive why this and that exception was made, but there it is. Before bitching about it you need to suggest a better alternative.

[slackline]

>This says it all really, he doesn't read, nor listen, nor think

Try using Quotes it provides better context as to whom you are replying to.

[Johnny Brown]

And in terms of a national framework, to the extent that I understand it, the BMC isn't explicitly "anti-bolt"

Quite the opposite, they both own bolted crags and fund bolting on crags they don't own.

[Stu Littlefair]

I'm surprised you totally agree with all my points, Stu, since at least one of them was aimed at you.

To be honest, your post changed my mind on that. I've always resented being associated with the Edward's actions just because i think a good crag is going unused. I hadn't considered that a motivating factor is to keep the Edward's actions out of the history books.

As to some of your other suggestions; I would make those arguments if I believed in them. It's better to acknowledge that bolting has lead to chipping and sica, and that it often is the thin end of the wedge (although I blame climbing Walls rather than hard sport climbs for the growth in easy bolted routes). We could offer all the reassurances that bolting CV won't lead to these things, but since we cant guarantee the actions of future climbers, what meaning would it have?

[granticus]

You could stress how many more local climbers there are now than there were in 1994 who could reasonably tackle such grades

I know that this young fella http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=149961 (can we link to UKC?) and his younger brother will be exceptionally pleased to have further super steep hard sport routes to go at in their locale.  They are just the thin end of the wedge too, there is lots of talent in Devon and Cornwall that can reasonably tackle such grades.  But being as folk from further afield are involved in these discussions, there are also lots of people from outside the South West that can reasonably tackle such grades.

Maybe JCM, you could put together a solid argument for the Penwith activists as you seem to have a solid idea of what's required to change 'you people's' minds?

[Andy W]

>This says it all really, he doesn't read, nor listen, nor think

OK, fuck you. Maybe I will take the trouble to drive down and vote against you. And maybe I will chop your bolts if you do put them in. If this is the best you can do, you don't deserve to win this debate. What are you, like, 16?

I was trying to suggest in my last two posts that the 'you' and 'them' is no longer appropriate. Something along the lines of a dialogue has been opened up, which I think is a positive thing. Dragging it back into a sixth form binary slagging match just seems counterproductive.

[Jaspersharpe]

Surely Medwards actions should be firmly and blatantly kept IN the record books as evidence of what should never have been done and should never be allowed to happen again?

Am I missing something or isn't it those who commit the crimes who generally want their actions erased from history rather than those who have been the victims or who have exposed the wrong doers?

I don't know a whole lot about this crag but what I do know is mired in the usual Medwards controversy and lies. If these routes were cleaned up, properly bolted and received a few ascents then a lot of questions would be answered, a lot of bullshit would be cleared up and a line drawn under the whole sorry mess. The record books would then show fact rather than lies and guesswork and there would be a nice crag for people to climb on rather than a disused lump of rock with some rotting metal stuck in it.

I think this would be a good thing.

I would expect postal votes for myself and all my family on the reasonable argument that I live abroad but got married in Cornwall ...

Bloody non doms.

[Three Nine]

JCM - are/were you ex-OUMC/at the Centenary Ball last year?

I find it so hard to understand why people feel so upset about the prospect of this crag having some sport routes. It seems so massively selfish.

[account_inactive]

JCM - are/were you ex-OUMC/at the Centenary Ball last year?

I find it so hard to understand why people feel so upset about the prospect of this crag having some sport routes. It seems so massively selfish.

Agreed.