[Dave Flanagan]

I know quite a few people on here have written and published bouldering guides in the past and I wondered if they or anyone else had any general advise for someone writing a guidebook.

What is everyone's favourite bouldering guide? Mine has to be either 7+8 or the Peak guide. I just borrowed a copy of the Rockfax Lakes Bouldering guide and it feels quite soulless to me. I think its the effect of all those photos of boulders with line drawn on them.

I love the minimalist topos in 7+8 but I think Font is one of the only bouldering areas where you could get away with them - thanks to the number circuits for reference.

My plan at the moment is for a5 landscape - it seems to make more sense for a bouldering as opposed to route guide.

[Dr T]

My plan at the moment is for a5 landscape - it seems to make more sense for a bouldering as opposed to route guide.

might just be me but landscape looks great and is fine for flicking through at home but the length of paper between the corner and the binding means a large moment acting at the binding and tearage ensures - sorry geeky way of saying they get trashed at the crag sooner than portrait

Also agree font book works for font but otherwise photo's are much better

as a thought how about laying pages out landscape but binding alon the top edge so each page opens out to A4 as it were - might not work but is an idea

[Drew]

Depends on the area, but I like the idea for Shropshire (?) to have a ring binder style guide, which you could buy/download the new pages as the areas get discovered. Would be useful for a developing area. Saying that though, it sounds like even Font is a developing area.

I personally dislike the landscape format as it stands. Easy to damage as mentioned, also I don't find it as easy to flick through. It also seems like you can't get much information on each page, but that might just be the couple of guides currently using the landscape format. Oh... and they don't stack on the bookshelf as easily/neatly either! Not that I'm OCD or anything 

[GCW]

I prefer to use portrait, then I can get 2 pages on one A4 sheet like this:




If you're doing the guide for free download and to print at home, it probably doesn't matter too much, you can do portrait/landscape topos if you think about the page layouts a bit.  I also use photo topos most of the time, helps to cut down on descriptions and IMHO looks better and is easier to use.  Be less practical for somewhere like Font though.

[Dave Flanagan]

I prefer to use portrait, then I can get 2 pages on one A4 sheet like this:




If you're doing the guide for free download and to print at home, it probably doesn't matter too much, you can do portrait/landscape topos if you think about the page layouts a bit.  I also use photo topos most of the time, helps to cut down on descriptions and IMHO looks better and is easier to use.  Be less practical for somewhere like Font though.

No its a print guide. In the only download guide I used map topos in 99% of cases, part of the logic was that photos of grey when printed in b+w on shitty printer are almost useless. For the color guide I'd say it more like 50% photo topos. Sometimes though they just don't work - especially on round boulders when there is only one line on each face.

[GCW]

Ah, OK.  For print I don't like landscape, don't know why not I just don't.

If you have scattered boulders a decent aerial map with numbers (like 7+8 guide) works best.  I think you get a feel for what will be best as you go along.  The number of times I've done loads of photos, then had to go back for more when I realise the angles aren't quite right

[SA Chris]

What is everyone's favourite bouldering guide?

From a style point of view I personally really like Simon Pantomime's N Wales Bouldering Guide. You might have to a similar bilingual one to prevent your cottage and Land Rover being set fire to.

[dingbat]

I find that writing the info on the back of my hand works just fine!.... leave the books on the coffee table where they belong.

[Ackbar]

Photos are better than line drawings.  Font grades better than V grades.   Bit of history and maybe a few short stories from the first ascents would be nice for when reading the book at home on a rainy day.

[dingbat]

maybe some sort of numbering should be applied to each problem, on the boulder, with a grade - It works in Font with the red, black ect.
As for short stories before bed time to get you hard, you try writing about a lump of rock, the story is the grade, the place, up a bit down a bit ect, now if that wont get you to sleep, reach for the jazz mag and a sock!

[Fiend]

Accurate approach maps.
Accurate approach times.
Accurate descriptions.
Accurate grades.
Include quality problems not gash non-move wonder sitters instead of good lines nearby.

I.e. the opposite of Scottish Bouldering.

And FFS not landscape, too floppy and annoying.

I find the Lakes Rockfax more inspiring than most guides due to the phototopos.

[Dave Flanagan]

I.e. the opposite of Scottish Bouldering.

I thought I read somewhere that the second scottish guide was a big improvement on the first one?

[grimer]

I'd agree with Fiend. The most important thing is the information - clear and accurate and easy for first-time visitors to find stuff. In my opinion, factors such as landscape or portrait come way way down the list.

My other thoughts:

If you're not a designer, don't try to make a designer-y guide. The Peak one and 7+8 obviously had proper designers working on them. If this isn't you, go for simple and clean.

Think first about the user of the guide, not yourself.

Make sure you actually describe where things are, not how you remember getting there.

Go easy on the hype. Most places aren't as good as developers think they are. You can generally knock at least one star of a first ascensionist's quality rating of anything. You're best to say something is okay and have someone mildly surprised than say it's great and have them disappointed.

Photos are often better than topos because you can see for yourself how something looks.


Landscape format is form over function.

[SA Chris]

I.e. the opposite of Scottish Bouldering.

I thought I read somewhere that the second scottish guide was a big improvement on the first one?

It is, but still flawed in some places.

[dave]

most important thing - use font grades. 

[Nigel]

Think first about the user of the guide, not yourself.

Make sure you actually describe where things are, not how you remember getting there.

Echo Grimer and Fiend on this, definitely the most important thing by miles. I would recommend getting someone who hasn't been to the crags before to take the draft out and try and use it. It can seem unnecessary but if you've been somewhere once, then you can't be trusted to describe directions fully. And if you get people lost on the way to the crag, they will hate your guide no matter how beautiful. In my mind this is where the 7&8 guide really falls through spectactularly - I've spent hours walking around cursing the lack of info (plus the fact the approach info is in a different place to the topo). All you need to do is describe:

• landmarks
  distances
  junctions
  approximate times

For instance, this "follow the track until a right turn takes you to the boulders", such as you might get in the 7&8's, is absolutely useless when you are on a 10km track with numerous right turns on, especially if the map doesn't show the other junctions. Much better would be "follow the track for 400 yards until the third turn on the right. Follow this path for another 400 yards to the boulders - the first boulder is visible 20 yards to the right of the path next to a huge oak. 10 mins walk from parking." Can't go wrong, happy punters.

P.S. Also agree with Grimer on landscape format. Don't bother.

[grimer]

Yes, thinking about that sort of stuff...

the first thing to do is to make sure people don't hate your guide. The second is to make sure they like it.

[Pantontino]

I agree with all that Grimer and Nigel have said.

7 + 8 is nice to look at but it is not a very functional guide to the forest. Having said that I do believe it is very important that a guide inspires as well as informs. This means strong images and good quality design.

I would favour using a 3 star quality system, but use it with a degree of realism.

Assemble a big team of people to give feedback upon the production of the guide. You might not agree with everything they say, but it is important that you hear it all before you commit to print. Ground Up guides usually have 20-30 people in an email loop. They get to see each chapter as it is produced. In my experience guides that are strictly limited to one man's vision end up being seriously flawed in some way or other.

If it is a definitive guide try and put a historically important shot on the cover - guidebooks are historical documents; they mark a point in time and if possible you should try and celebrate the 'state of the art'. Lots of guidebook producers choose not to do this - favouring instead a more generic/representative pic which (they believe) will maximise the books appeal to mainstream climbers. I find the lack of ambition in this approach a bit depressing, but I do understand the tactical thinking behind it.

If you are lucky you will get a shot that is both historically important, but also an attractive representaion of what is best about climbing/bouldering in your area.

[roddersm]

You can generally knock at least one star of a first ascensionist's quality rating of anything.

Haha Grimer hope you still feel that way after the new donegal guide comes out  .

Hi Dave.

What areas are you planning to cover? As Doolin and the mournes are covered in the respected trad guides are these being ommitted? Are you including Fairhead which has seen alot of development recently but no updated topo?

I think there's a lot of good advice here but if you're doing a guide for the whole of Ireland
then probably using the font guide, which is selected problems or the peak or north wales which are areas fairly close together as a reference then I don't see that this will work.

The only real reference (that I know off) is the scottish guide which cover a lot of areas of varying size and quality which are geographically very far apart.

Areal topos and detailed and accurate directions to find problems and areas is vital. Photographs too rather than drawings. In a lot of areas its hard to get beta as locals are thin on the ground and its important to get input from people in different areas otherwise this will end up a wicklow guide with some other areas tagged on with insufficient detail.

Also as grimer said be realistic about the quality of areas otherwise noone will take irish bouldering seriously. I have bouldered in a number of locations and whilst some have a bit of potential, some of the areas are pretty mediocre and the guide should be honest about this. There are of course some super areas so a starred system should reflect this.

Also don't like the inclusion of the projects. Think just the things that are done should be included but thats just me. People can find there own projects.

Finally when is this guide due and how frequently do you see the guides being developed? Some areas like fermanagh and the head(and others I'm sure) are being developed rapidly(I believe). It would be a shame if this guide was out of date soon after print, if this is the definitive guide to Ireland.

Best of luck with the guide.
 

[slackline]

Probably worth mentioning that Dave maintains The Shortspan web-site and has for a number of years made a guide to bouldering in Eire freely available check out the last update (v5) here.

Obviously I've no idea if this will form the basis of the guide that is in-progress.

[Dave Flanagan]

Looks food for thought, thanks everyone.

Dave, am using Font grades.

Simon, I'm going to be passing around chapters for people to use at places they have never been so the directions and like should be well tested. Interesting what you are saying about the cover the plan was to use a bright, colorful representative shot. Will have to think about it. Of course it all depends on the shots I have available.

Rodders. I'm going to cover the whole island.
I'm not omitting anywhere already covered by route guides.
I'm including FH and will be heading up and trying to get as much info from locals and people like yourself.
I'm not using any guide as a refence. You are right its only guides to whole country like the Scotland guide that are similar in scope.
Everywhere will be treated to the same level of detail. However the reality is that there alot more problems in Wicklow than in any other county.
I would be interested to hear your opinion of any areas you have visited especially the more out of the way ones.
There is a good bit more information on the guide here http://boulderingireland.blogspot.com/. Its due at the end of the year. How often will it be updated? Very hard to say. It would be primarily a financial decision.
I know there is new areas being found all the time. But I think the really major discoveries are made - I hope I'm wrong about this - there is always a risk of new areas cropping up soon after a guide is printed but there is nothing i can do about this, I can't wait for ever.

Slackline. Yes the web based guide I have been doing for years will be the basis of the new print guide.

Thanks everyone.

[slackline]

Slackline. Yes the web based guide I have been doing for years will be the basis of the new print guide.

I was guessing the content would be similar, but the "basis" was meant more as a caveat that the style of the guide you're currently developing might not be that which is used in the current PDF.

BTW - My brother is currently finding that guide very useful as he's started getting back into bouldering again (and is currently residing in Eire).  Might get a chance to check out Doolin later this year myself.

[Dave Flanagan]

Slackline. Yes the web based guide I have been doing for years will be the basis of the new print guide.

I was guessing the content would be similar, but the "basis" was meant more as a caveat that the style of the guide you're currently developing might not be that which is used in the current PDF.

BTW - My brother is currently finding that guide very useful as he's started getting back into bouldering again (and is currently residing in Eire).  Might get a chance to check out Doolin later this year myself.

Yes of course you are  right, the new guide will look completely different from the old PDF guide.
Good to hear of people using the guide. Tell him to let me know if he has any feedback. Let me know if you are heading to Doolin and I will send you a draft.

[roddersm]

Rodders. I'm going to cover the whole island.
I'm not omitting anywhere already covered by route guides.
I'm including FH and will be heading up and trying to get as much info from locals and people like yourself.
I'm not using any guide as a refence. You are right its only guides to whole country like the Scotland guide that are similar in scope.
Everywhere will be treated to the same level of detail. However the reality is that there alot more problems in Wicklow than in any other county.
I would be interested to hear your opinion of any areas you have visited especially the more out of the way ones.
There is a good bit more information on the guide here http://boulderingireland.blogspot.com/. Its due at the end of the year. How often will it be updated? Very hard to say. It would be primarily a financial decision.
I know there is new areas being found all the time. But I think the really major discoveries are made - I hope I'm wrong about this - there is always a risk of new areas cropping up soon after a guide is printed but there is nothing i can do about this, I can't wait for ever.

Sounds good Dave. I've heard there's some good stuff happening in fermanagh, you might want to to try and chat to the locals and the belfast boys. Wicklow of course will make up most of the guide but hopefully the info on the other areas will be detailed and accurate as possible. I probably don't know much more about the areas this way than you do but if I can help in any way then give me a shout. Fairheads in a different league to the
other areas I've bouldered at, mainly in donegal, and thats being objective. I'm sure Wicklow and the mournes are excellent but likewise I'm sure there are plenty of not so good areas. Hopefully a starred system or the likes,used honestly, will highlight the top areas, the decent ones and the not so
good. All the Best.

p.s. Re fairhead. Thats the belfast boys's baby, so probably can't add much more on there beyond to say that there's been a few grade shifts as well as some quality new problems since the original topo. Hunt those boys down! 
 

[Dave Flanagan]

Probably worth mentioning that Dave maintains The Shortspan web-site and has for a number of years made a guide to bouldering in Eire freely available.

Worth emphasing that what Dave has been doing at the ShortSpan has been altruistic on an unprecedented scale ... I can't think of anywhere else where so much free info has been made available for such a long time. The man deserves a medal or whatever the equivalent is in Eire (Charles Haughey style brown envelope from the state's coffers?).

Well I'm sure the massive profit that I shall make on the guide will be reward enough in itself. All guidebook authors are minted right?

[AndyR]

Probably worth mentioning that Dave maintains The Shortspan web-site and has for a number of years made a guide to bouldering in Eire freely available.

Worth emphasing that what Dave has been doing at the ShortSpan has been altruistic on an unprecedented scale ... I can't think of anywhere else where so much free info has been made available for such a long time. The man deserves a medal or whatever the equivalent is in Eire (Charles Haughey style brown envelope from the state's coffers?).

I think Jon does a rather amazing job also with his Yorkshiregrit site - the amount of time he puts into that is extraordinary.