One key moment for me was watching Daniel Friebe's interview with Tom Pidcock at the start of yesterday's stage .
What no one seems to have mentioned is JV’s bike handling. He was way superior on the descents probably putting 30 seconds in to TP on these alone never mind what he gained on the rest of the corners.
Quote from: webbo on July 20, 2023, 06:44:45 pmWhat no one seems to have mentioned is JV’s bike handling. He was way superior on the descents probably putting 30 seconds in to TP on these alone never mind what he gained on the rest of the corners.Technique and levels of fatigue are linked. Maybe TP was more tired and making mistakes. JV energy levels seem surprisingly high
Quote from: MarkJ on July 20, 2023, 10:27:44 pmOne key moment for me was watching Daniel Friebe's interview with Tom Pidcock at the start of yesterday's stage .Missed that but interesting, there was another recent interview in which Pidcock said he 'didn't understand' how in the Tour they can keep going full gas every single day. I also picked up, in a little feature ITV did about Egan Bernal, a comment from his coach about how the winning standard is now notably higher than when Bernal won in 2019 (and that EB would have to be better than he was then to compete).If you suppose that Vingegaard is doping, so are Jumbo Visma. If Jumbo Visma are on it, so must UAE be. Then you look at the fact that not much separates the Yates brothers, riding for different teams. Rodriguez is Ineos, same as Pidcock. Where does it stop? (Perhaps I'm making a false assumption here that it would be a team-sanctioned rather than individual thing). Thibaut Pinot has probably been the rider most outspoken about 'two speeds in the peloton' from that 2021 L'Équipe interview, and he sits a little way outside the top 10. I guess it isn't necessarily a case of pure clean vs doping, but potentially degrees of usage? Degrees of compromise/risk? All very muddy.
Something happened during COVID, if you look at the pre COVID and post COVID times and power outputs. Some that are potentially naive have put it down to the athletes being able to have the first proper rest in their career... Others have pointed out that doping control was effectively suspended for 6 months and the riders could have, if they wanted to, taken any performance enhancing drugs they wanted provided they could get back to the levels on the passport by the time the regime resumed testing.
Quote from: sxrxg on July 21, 2023, 10:13:35 amSomething happened during COVID, if you look at the pre COVID and post COVID times and power outputs. Some that are potentially naive have put it down to the athletes being able to have the first proper rest in their career... Others have pointed out that doping control was effectively suspended for 6 months and the riders could have, if they wanted to, taken any performance enhancing drugs they wanted provided they could get back to the levels on the passport by the time the regime resumed testing.Either hypothesis, the rest or taking PEDs, might explain a jump in performance immediately after Covid, but surely neither has any relevance now? Though I suppose that lay-off in testing might have provided freedom to experiment 'safely' with a simulated testing programme and what you could get away with?Another musing on relative performance. There have been a few massive one-day climbing performances in this race, from riders like Kwiatkowski and Poels (neither of whom, from what I can gather, in the context of their careers, would be prime suspects for doping). But their times on the final climbs were impressively fast, and the big GC riders weren't that much faster. I don't know what this means - you could of course take the most cynical interpretation, but you could also see it as meaning that what significantly separates the big beasts from the rest is being able to do it day after day (however that can be explained). Though JV's TT is still an outlier.
Quote from: andy moles on July 21, 2023, 10:41:04 amQuote from: sxrxg on July 21, 2023, 10:13:35 amSomething happened during COVID, if you look at the pre COVID and post COVID times and power outputs. Some that are potentially naive have put it down to the athletes being able to have the first proper rest in their career... Others have pointed out that doping control was effectively suspended for 6 months and the riders could have, if they wanted to, taken any performance enhancing drugs they wanted provided they could get back to the levels on the passport by the time the regime resumed testing.Either hypothesis, the rest or taking PEDs, might explain a jump in performance immediately after Covid, but surely neither has any relevance now? Though I suppose that lay-off in testing might have provided freedom to experiment 'safely' with a simulated testing programme and what you could get away with?Another musing on relative performance. There have been a few massive one-day climbing performances in this race, from riders like Kwiatkowski and Poels (neither of whom, from what I can gather, in the context of their careers, would be prime suspects for doping). But their times on the final climbs were impressively fast, and the big GC riders weren't that much faster. I don't know what this means - you could of course take the most cynical interpretation, but you could also see it as meaning that what significantly separates the big beasts from the rest is being able to do it day after day (however that can be explained). Though JV's TT is still an outlier.I’m not sure I’m sold on your interpretation of MK and WPs results. Kwiatkowski has always, always been a strong rider as has Poels been a very, very strong climber just hidden behind working for others. I don’t think there is anything suspect about their results when they’ve spent the last two weeks soft pedalling in the peloton. It serves as a fairly useless comparison. Take Asgreen yesterday. He could put in that outrageous, once in a tour effort because, AFAIK he’s been fairly anonymous all Tour.
With regards the two speeds in the peloton this could...... Alternatively UAE, Jumbo, Ineos and Quickstep are not part of the MPCC whereas FDJ are.Pidcock hasn't been a GC contender in a grand tour before, who knows whether he's cut out for it.Sky had lots of great stories about all their marginal gains but the steroids they gave Wiggins by gaming the TUE system probably made more of a difference.
Maybe all the top ten riders of the classics and the grand tours should be made to go on Oprahs show. Then we might get to know what’s going on
Yes, this is the MPCC list, and you can see that most of the French teams plus Bora Hansgroer are on there. I think this explains why the French have had so little success in the big races recently ( but a great ride by the guy from AG2R on Wednesday - respect ! )https://www.mpcc.fr/en/our-members/Pidcock was 7th last year.The point about Sky is part of the reason it's so odd to see Jumbo Visma so far ahead. Sky came into the scene and took a Formula 1 approach to the details, looking at everything, throwing out the old mid-20th-century dogmas, doing experiments on everything. There was a lot of low-hanging fruit back then. I don't believe their success was down to drugs, the transgressions were mostly minor and probably being doen by all teams at the time. The worst one was Wiggins taking Kenacort, that was very much NOT OK .So my point is, in the post-Sky era, how to Jumbo Visma explain their sudden surge in performance ?A lot of what I've read about advances recently is to do with extra carbohydrate per hour ( as Andy mentioned ) plus ketones ; but these are mainly improving endurance and recovery.The worrying bit about what we've seen in the last week is that it's showing greater climbing speeds and hence W/kg. It looks just like a blood-boosting issue, like EPO was in the early 90's.Perhaps it's Roxadustat ?https://www.msn.com/en-gb/health/other/cycling-banned-blood-booster-a-challenge-for-anti-doping-authorities-expert/ar-AA1e8qmo?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531&cvid=04f9e3afd7f24096972d7f376fac3b3e&ei=43
Pidcock didn't come 7th last year; he finished behind the likes of Madouas. He was up there to start with but then lost a lot of time in the mountains, a bit like this year. He was riding in support of others and was fetching bottles.
And so it came to pass.I thought this was a particularly petty, unpleasant little article: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jul/23/cycling-tour-de-france-winner-jonas-vingegaard-fails-to-win-over-publicIn the meantime, looking forward to being at Rådhuspladsen for the celebrations on Wednesday afternoon.