[barbe1]

Just wondering...

What is the score with cleaning routes and boulder problems for first ascents (and are they the same?) before you climb them these days? (not on grit, talking big sea cliffs and mountain crags)

As in, are you allowed to wire brush, remove blocks that would otherwise kill you, remove blocks that might kill you, remove blocks that probably won't fall off but don't inspire confidence, brushing off lichen, clean jammed stones from cracks to find gear, etc etc..

What do the famous pioneers do? Like DM, Birkett, Pearson, or Emmett, or ste mac?

If someone has tried a route or a boulder prob does that means that's how it should be tried for the rest of time? Even if it's got loose holds on or is really dirty?

Cheers

[SA Chris]

As in, are you allowed to wire brush, remove blocks that would otherwise kill you, remove blocks that might kill you, remove blocks that probably won't fall off but don't inspire confidence, brushing off lichen, clean jammed stones from cracks to find gear, etc etc..

Depends where exactly, but generally yes to all of the above. Except where local ethics say otherwise.

[barbe1]

What if a set of local ethics is yet to be properly established? Like if you find a boulder that hasn't been climbed on in somewhere that hasn't been developed. Can you just make it up?

Or if there are two (small) groups of climbers who started climbing at a place in exactly the same time, and they have different ethics on how things should be cleaned?

[SA Chris]

Do what feels right. And ro sham bo if there's a conflict.

[neil h]

well i say as long as you dont damage the rock and it does not look like you have wire brushed it, do what you need to do to get some nice lines up that are climable and wont kill anyone else that follows you up

[clm]

and err on the side of caution. Dont go wire brushing like crazy likthose scottish f**kwits at garheugh cleaning priblems done ages before and hammering the rock. Rant over.

Caveat - no-one is likely to be remotely arsed about the above.

[rodma]

I used  a wire brush when cleaning off a granite boulder. The brush barely lasted a day as it was eaten by the rock.

I wouldn't go using a wire brush on any soft rock though, you'll end up creating holds and anyone who climbs there after you will wonder what you were playing at. If something feels too hard to climb without aggressive brushing, then MTFU or leave it alone. Conversely if something would provide a great testpiece for you, if it wasn't for all of those extra holds, tough shit, don't break them off intentionally. It's one thing removing loose holds, it's a totally different game creating "new" lines

and err on the side of caution. Dont go wire brushing like crazy likthose scottish f**kwits at garheugh cleaning priblems done ages before and hammering the rock. Rant over.

  re erring on the side of caution

I wasn't aware of any of the garheugh stuff, have only ever heard one side of this story which definately missed out any hammering etc. Please tell more, behaviour like that really pisses me off.

P.S. I trust that you don't genuinely have a grudge against the Scottish and actually meant to say "those fuckwits at garheugh"

[slackline]

P.S. I trust that you don't genuinely have a grudge against the Scottish and actually meant to say "those fuckwits at garheugh"

Fuckwits can be Scottish, English, Welsh, Irish, French, German, Spanish, Italian, Australian, American, Canadian, Swiss, Russian, Chinese.....

[chillax]

What is the score with cleaning routes and boulder problems for first ascents

You've not been following the irish climbing forums recently by any chance have you?

[rodma]

P.S. I trust that you don't genuinely have a grudge against the Scottish and actually meant to say "those fuckwits at garheugh"

Fuckwits can be Scottish, English, Welsh, Irish, French, German, Spanish, Italian, Australian, American, Canadian, Swiss, Russian, Chinese.....

Really, I didn't know that 

I'm more interested to know who allegedly did what/when than where they were born. I appreciate that place of birth does have some relevance to the size of the chip on an individual's shoulder, but fail to see the relevance in clm's post.

As far as I was aware, the guys who thought that they had developed it were a mix of scots and normal people 

reason for edit: can't spell "of"

[clm]

no hammering, and nowt against the scots. 2 scottish grannies.
Just that id been there a bit cos its near my grans house, it eventually got written up somewhere and next visit i found that holds had been cleaned to an extent where grey looking rock was now orangey and you could see the effect of the brush gouged into the rock. Shame was the majority of these probs were possible without brushing. Its weird, thin lichen, nowt thick or chossy. I ranted at them at the time onlinesomewhere. Its probably descending back into a pleasant lichenous obscurity now. I wouldnt worry.

[rodma]

no hammering, and nowt against the scots. 2 scottish grannies.
Just that id been there a bit cos its near my grans house, it eventually got written up somewhere and next visit i found that holds had been cleaned to an extent where grey looking rock was now orangey and you could see the effect of the brush gouged into the rock. Shame was the majority of these probs were possible without brushing. Its weird, thin lichen, nowt thick or chossy. I ranted at them at the time onlinesomewhere. Its probably descending back into a pleasant lichenous obscurity now. I wouldnt worry.

I checked garheugh out a few years back, when working down that way and couldn't work out what was what from the topos/descriptions that were avail online. It is very interesting looking rock, like a mix between grey sandstone with quartz veins. I was daft enough not to have a pad, as I thought it would be a nice sandy beach. It's a very unusual place, with some unique rock formations and I thought that everything looked totally nails.

The rock was certainly very clean, which is unusual for such an unpopular venue and you're right about the lack of a need to wire brush any of it. It's not as if (like in some areas of font) only the holds are clean and the rest of the rock is either covered in moss or very sandy. Maybe the sea keeps it nice and clean (or the unrelenting wind, it is the south west after all)

[barbe1]

What is the score with cleaning routes and boulder problems for first ascents

You've not been following the irish climbing forums recently by any chance have you?

Yeah, thats what prompted this discussion. As far as I can tell there are various groups of climbers with differring opinions on how cleaning should be carried out, both with reasonably valid claims to the fairhead boulder fields.

[chillax]

Well I hope this discussion doesn't go the way that one did. The whole Murlough Bay incident was a bit anomalous really. And theres only a couple of handfulls of people who boulder there regularly so it was all a bit of a storm in a teacup. The main issue was the use of pallets to tame a legbreaker landing. Some people thought it was a bit ugly, it was removed. End of. There were also allegations of chipping, but I don't think anyone really took that seriously in the first place. There tends to be a lot of loose flakes on the boulders down there before they're cleaned and climbed on. They usually come away in your hands, more often than not leaving no useable holds in their place just a paler patch of rock.

Use a bit of common sense and you'll have no problems. Are you from up here (the north) yourself barbe1?

Edit: mods, this should probably be moved out of 'places to visit' into 'bouldering' or somesuch

[chummer]

Just wondering...

What is the score with cleaning routes and boulder problems for first ascents (and are they the same?) before you climb them these days? (not on grit, talking big sea cliffs and mountain crags)

As in, are you allowed to wire brush, remove blocks that would otherwise kill you, remove blocks that might kill you, remove blocks that probably won't fall off but don't inspire confidence, brushing off lichen, clean jammed stones from cracks to find gear, etc etc..

What do the famous pioneers do? Like DM, Birkett, Pearson, or Emmett, or ste mac?

If someone has tried a route or a boulder prob does that means that's how it should be tried for the rest of time? Even if it's got loose holds on or is really dirty?

Cheers

The first question to ask yourself is; is it worth it? Try to be as objective as possible with this, it's easy to get a little over excited and see mediocre lines as future classics! If the line ain't really gonna be that good then what's the point, best find the real gems and do them, quality control will ensure your routes get repeated and enjoyed.

Secondly, I know it sounds obvious but only clean what you really need to in order to climb the route. Don't do the classic mistake of cleaning every hold and every bit of vegetation on the line only to find upon climbing it that most of it could have been left. If you're not going for the flash then try the moves and the route first to see what actually needs to be cleaned.

Wire brush only needed when a stiff nylon jobby won't do the trick. Lichen only really need to be removed for smears and slopers.

Loose rock- this is the fun bit,  take out anything thats a real danger. A nut key is handy for prizing off loose holds, hammers can be a bit OTT unless there's shit loads of loose rock. A small crow bar is good for big blocks (pull up your ropes first though!)

Basically be sympathetic to the environment.

Good luck and enjoy the process!

[chummer]

Oh and check the access, I guess this should be the very first thing, if it's a problem no-one will ever be able to go and do your routes even if they wanted to.

[barbe1]

Yeah, I'm from Northern Ireland. Grew up climbing at the head. Just wanted to know what other peoples opinions on cleaning routes were. It's perfectly obvious to me when I am cleaning what I should and shouldn't remove, but just out of interest thought I would see what other people thought.

After all, what seems to have been established on the Irish forums is that one man's cleaning is another man's chipping. It's funny, because it is very arbitrary where you draw the line, but everyone does have a line of what they think is acceptable.

Personally, if the way I cleaned upset people I would probably change my approach (even if I thought i was right), but I don't have a massive bee in my bonnet about doing FA's, and don't care enough about cleaning/climbing FA's to do them if it upsets people.

[SA Chris]

It is very interesting looking rock, like a mix between grey sandstone with quartz veins.

Greywacke apparently. Wack being the operative word?

[chummer]

It's perfectly obvious to me when I am cleaning what I should and shouldn't remove, but just out of interest thought I would see what other people thought.

Sorry if I was telling you how to suck eggs there, your thread title sounded like you were pretty unsure.

Sounds like it's a hot topic over your way, like you, I can't see the problem if you're cleaning in a responsible manner. Surely dangerous blocks, loose holds and excessive lichen en route, veg in crucial gear placements are all fair game.
I do think it is easy to get the wire brush out too soon (I'm sure a good few of us have made that mistake) when a stiff nylon will do.

Bizarrely enough I've been on a few newish slate routes recently that have been wire brushed to fuck, literally every hold, yet on one of the softest and cleanest rocks around. So I guess there are a few fuckwits still out there.