[Paul B]

It's not worth worrying about. It's mostly a problem when doing multiple abs, and you clip straight into a sling. That's when it can, and does, cause accidents.

I have to say I was using a dyneema lanyard for all my mp sport routes / abs for ease.

[tj]

I think the DMM alloy offsets #7-11 (i.e. the bigger ones) are fantastic bits of kit. They took me a bit of time to get used to, but now I've learnt to spot the placements, they often fit really well. I've found them good on quartzite, sandstone, granite, limestone, rhyolite... Probably better as a supplement to 2 sets of conventional wires, but I wouldn't be without 'em. BD Micro Stoppers good for similar reasons.

Can recommend Metolius Mastercams in the smaller sizes. Also nice kit, although shame the sling isn't longer, and I'm a little concerned about durability of the fancy kevlar cables. Mine are doing ok after 4 months of regular use, but that's early days, I guess.

I'd make some QDs with thin dyneema slings in an 'Alpine draw' set-up. Light, variable length and can also be used for smaller threads/flakes. Winner.

On the topic of setting up anchors, I was shown a copy of John Long's book on the subject, which made for interesting reading (well, as much as it can be...). Certainly made me re-evaluate my set-up.

[slackline]

Not much to add.

I like the DMM off-sets too, they really do sit well, even in grit if the right size (e.g. ideal for crux of Left Unconquerable).

Who are you going to be climbing with?  Do they have a rack/ropes?  Would save having to buy everything yourself.

I've climbed on a single and paired it with a half before without much bother (can be handy too if you can't look down to see which rope to pull!).

One thing missing, from the list is a helmet, especially for Gogarth and mountain crags.  (Guessing this has likely been covered, but thought it worth mentioning).

[Bonjoy]

And remember the golden rule that I'll be drilling into Fresher's come September. Bad bad things happen to those who don't carry enough spare screwgates and slings.

Is that a Freudian double entendre?

[Will Hunt]

A double entendre yes. Freudian? Never.

[El Mocho]

Good effort getting into the trad.

As others have said at least 1 more full set of wires. No real difference between wallnuts and rocks, but would not bother with the more offset ones until you get up to  a 3rd set (I carry 2 sets of wallnuts, and a further set off dmm offsets which go up to equivelent of size 6) The off sets are really usefull at times but don't work as well in general.

'Brass' micros tend to be stronger and more versitile (they are much narrower, so go in shallower placements and good turned sideways) than the small allu nuts, they are more expensive though. If you are gonna need micros (prob not much at gogarth, more else where) you tend to want as many as you can in as many different shapes as possible. Prob worth sticking with what you have got/1 more set until you work out how into trad you get (they are more use on the harder climbs, where cracks tend to be smaller)

Cam wise, as others have said, gogarth eats them up, and is therefore one of the places where dragon/camalots are possibly less good. They have a bigger range so you carry fewer but they weigh (and cost) more per item. Compared with the old camalots (the new ones are lighter, and dragons lighter again) the 11 dmm 4cus were only 100g heavyer then the 8 camolots needed to cover the same size range but you had 3 more pieces. I think the dragons/camalots do have a nicer action and (obviously) a bigger range. With the dragons just out you may well be able to get good deals on the traditional cams.

Climbing at gogarth can often lead to a lot of rope drag so having long draws is a real advantage, also making sure you carry enougth to extend things is really good so going long, light and lots is good (I once carried 25 quickdraws, 3 sets of wires, 2 full sets of cams (up to size 5) and 15 slings on a route at gogarth and didn't have enough gear for the belay) maybe buy 5 or 6 long light draws to go with the spirits, and more at a later date.

I never carry screw gates (just the 1 on my belay plate) so 4 is more than enougth (maybe have another in my bag for abbing in at gogarth etc)

I have an 8.9mm sport rope which is very stretchy so works quite well as a double. Problem is it wears out v quick when sport climbing and is not as good as my 8mms for trad.

helmet good as well.

[Johnny Brown]

Word. Just wrote this, and then Ben beat me to it. No doubt some similar opinions...

Ropes: Was climbing with El Mocho weds night, he has a Mammut 8.9mm 70m sport rope - does double duty for big sport routes and odd trad. Coupled with one of my Beal 8.6mm 60m half ropes it worked great - we warmed up on some trad, then did some sport. I'd go for a combo like that rather than two skinny singles. If you get well into the trad you can get another matched half rope. Be worth getting/ keeping a shorter, thicker sport rope too for working stuff.

Rack: You've got a basic wire rack, plus a shit rack of cams. Okay for grit.

For limestone - you need to double up on wires. The cams will suffice.

For Slate - you need more small wires, plus RP.

Gogarth - you need a few more wires, and a decent cam rack.

Lleyn - a double rack of cams is ideal.

Climbing with a lot of sponsored heroes/ sales reps, I've used most kit. Nobody does a perfect range, but pick and choose and you can
get pretty close.

Wires - the ideal is a set of each WC Rocks and DMM wallnuts, up to 7, then singles up to 11. Avoid Metolius.

Micro wires - RPs still the best, Astros ok. For slightly bigger, Peanuts are okay, prefer the WC half-rocks (single wire). Ideal is a varied bunch so mix it up- they don't weigh much.

Hexes - only carry in winter usually, or big easy trad (lighter than cams), when a single set 5-9 is very useful. Stick to WC/ DMM.

Cams - bulk of my rack is DMM 4cus. Still the lightest I think, which is great when you carry loads. I'm not a subscriber to this theory that Dragons/ Camalots are superior. Maybe on short routes, where you can carry four and cover a big range, but on a big route you need to place loads. If Dragons are lighter, get four of those first, then supplement with 3cus up to 1.5, 4cus 2 and above.

Small/ Micro cams - BD, by far the best. Aliens and Metolius ok, avoid WC zeroes.

Really recommend the DMM 3cus from 0.5 to 1.5. Really useful.

The best and cheapest way to supplement any cam rack is Tricams. Sizes 0.5, 1 & 1.5 always useful. Fiddly at first but so versatile.

The big game changers in the last ten years have been overall weight, and decent micro-cams. Make sure you are heading towards taking advantage of both.

Draws - Spirits and wide tapes are only fit for sport routes. 8mm Dyneema plus DMM biners, make the majority 20cm+. For some reason I can't stand WCs recent biners. The really tiny krabs are best avoided unless you mainly climb on 8mm ropes (7.8 - 8.2, no bigger). Get some 2 or 3 60cm 8mm slings and triple them up as extendable draws too.

Don't worry about dyneema slings failing. The difference in DMMs test is due to the slipperiness of Dyneema compared to Nylon. Knots tighten much easier>tight radius> loss of strength. Haven't carried a Nylon sling for years, just don't tie overhand knots in Dyneema and then start taking direct falls on them.

[T_B]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned the Wild Country single stem Superlight Rocks, but these are ace as a supplement to a couple of sets of normal wires. They're the only thing that's come out in the past 10 years or so that I've adopted to my rack.

My fave trad ropes have been the 8.1mm Beal Iceline. Light as a feather, pretty durable and are a good incentive not to fall off.

[T_B]

The best and cheapest way to supplement any cam rack is Tricams. Sizes 0.5, 1 & 1.5 always useful. Fiddly at first but so versatile.

Sandbagging surely? Fiddly, uninspiring and impossible to extract. Possibly one of the crappest bits of gear invented IMHO.

[Paul B]

Who are you going to be climbing with?  Do they have a rack/ropes?  Would save having to buy everything yourself.

My better half who unfortunately has nothing.

I do have a lid as well.

[chris_j_s]

I'd include a couple of DMM Revolver crabs - combined with long draws they are the dogs nuts for reducing rope drag!

[Johnny Brown]

Possibly one of the crappest bits of gear invented IMHO

Only if you're retarded! The most versatile piece of trad gear ever invented.

Good call on the revolvers.

[Andy B]

Don't dick about with 50m ropes. Get 60m. You can abseil further so you can be sat in the bar while your mates are still trying to hot knife their rope with a nut key. Also for the shorted grit crags you can use one of the ropes and merely have your second tie in half way down and climb on the two ends.

I'm not sure I'd agree with this:

There aren't many pitches in Britain that can't be done with 50's.

You won't be doing many multiple abs in Britain and virtually all fixed ab anchors on the continent are set up for 45- 50m ropes.

Running out a pitch of 60m on trad gear usually resulted in slowing me down, due to rope drag, rather than speeding things up.

60m ropes mean carrying more rope around, pulling more rope through every time you belay or ab and cost more in the first place.

You can still do most grit routes on a halved 50m.

The most useful places for 60m rope that I found was scottish winter. Not much gear so less rope drag, more flexibility over belay position and nice to get right back once over cornices; and very rare occasions abroad doing long abs off my own gear.

I'd have a couple of hexes on the harness.

I'm not sure you'd get much use out of these for the sort of stuff I'm guessing you'll be doing.

Main situations where I've used hexes:

scotish winter

routes on really loose rock, where I've carried all the gear I had and placed as much as possible.

routes up wide (hex/ cam sized) cracks where there's a good chance I may have to ab off, and would rather leave behind hexes than cams.


I agree with El Mocho re. the specificity of offsets. I think I said something similar in your RP thread.

[Andy B]

The best and cheapest way to supplement any cam rack is Tricams. Sizes 0.5, 1 & 1.5 always useful. Fiddly at first but so versatile.

Sandbagging surely? Fiddly, uninspiring and impossible to extract. Possibly one of the crappest bits of gear invented IMHO.

I used to routinely carry a 0.5 and a 1, and regularly found good placements for these where nothing else would fit, but I never owned really small cams, so don't know if these have been superceded much now. Good in Scottish winter, giving a bit more bite than cams on icey rock, but I found them desperate to place without removing gloves.

I managed to rip half way through the stitching on my number one, by clipping it half way up the sling then repeatedly falling off on it, when trying to ground up Peak Techniquue. Nasty fall factors due to my mate being very efficient in running to take in slack.

[cofe]

i haven't bothered to read the thread, but i hope to god lovejoy has recommended a full set of ballnuts.

[Johnny Brown]

I used to routinely carry a 0.5 and a 1, and regularly found good placements for these where nothing else would fit, but I never owned really small cams, so don't know if these have been superceded much now.

Exactly my experience, placed one only on wednesday, and I've done several routes where they are crucial. DMM 3CUs have come close to superseding the bigger sizes, but for one and two finger pockets its still a tricam or nothing (although Paul has a skyhook...). The other big benefit is they will go in anywhere a cam will, but for a fraction of the weight. They're a much cheaper and lighter way of doubling up your small cams, with the bonus of adding extra placements. Its a no-brainer.

[slackline]

Don't dick about with 50m ropes. Get 60m. You can abseil further so you can be sat in the bar while your mates are still trying to hot knife their rope with a nut key. Also for the shorted grit crags you can use one of the ropes and merely have your second tie in half way down and climb on the two ends.

I'm not sure I'd agree with this:

There aren't many pitches in Britain that can't be done with 50's.

You won't be doing many multiple abs in Britain and virtually all fixed ab anchors on the continent are set up for 45- 50m ropes.

Running out a pitch of 60m on trad gear usually resulted in slowing me down, due to rope drag, rather than speeding things up.

60m ropes mean carrying more rope around, pulling more rope through every time you belay or ab and cost more in the first place.

You can still do most grit routes on a halved 50m.

The most useful places for 60m rope that I found was scottish winter. Not much gear so less rope drag, more flexibility over belay position and nice to get right back once over cornices; and very rare occasions abroad doing long abs off my own gear.

Conversely I found double 60m's very handy for multipitch sports routes in Verdon (but we we're climbing as a three).

[Johnny Brown]

I'd get a 60, especially if its getting matched to a skinny sport rope which will likely to be 60 minimum. Bit of a faff at short crags, but handy for top pitches on mountain crags, Gogarth etc. Top tip: If you don't like it, chop the end off. You then have a 50m rope, and a 10m uber-light sport rope, ideal for redpoints of right-hand Raven tor desperates!

[Andy B]

As I said. If Paul is following guidebook descriptions he is unlikely to need that extra 10m to find decent belays on the routes he is likely to do for a while , but will have to pull through that extra 10 metres every single pitch that he climbs, and if money is indeed an issue then the extra paid for ten metres that are rarely used would be better spent elsewhere.

If on the otherhand you need a 60m for the sport routes you are doing, then defo get a second rope of the same length. Unequal rope lengths are an even bigger pain than pulling uneeded rope up.

[Andy B]

Conversely I found double 60m's very handy for multipitch sports routes in Verdon (but we we're climbing as a three).

I've never climbed in the Verdon. Are there lots of routes with belays 60m apart there? You will obviously want double ropes when climbing as a three, or on anything you might want to ab off, but I'm surprised classics there weren't bolted with shorter rope lengths in mind.

[slackline]

Conversely I found double 60m's very handy for multipitch sports routes in Verdon (but we we're climbing as a three).

I've never climbed in the Verdon. Are there lots of routes with belays 60m apart there? You will obviously want double ropes when climbing as a three, but I'm surprised classics there weren't bolted with shorter rope lengths in mind.

No routes that I climbed had 60m pitches, but they were exceptionally handy for the abbs (combined pitches on several occasions, one of which wasn't intentional  ).

[RichK]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned the Wild Country single stem Superlight Rocks, but these are ace as a supplement to a couple of sets of normal wires. They're the only thing that's come out in the past 10 years or so that I've adopted to my rack.

I'd second this after using TB's. Great for back ups and odd placements (they're a different cut to standard rocks). I'd go WC rocks(double set>9 for sea cliffs etc) over wallnuts any time. I find them a nightmare to take out and often get jammed.

Not sure about state of art on small wires. Still using RP's which seem fine but I hear good things about imps and BD's tinys.

Highest praise for DMM Dragons. They have THE definitive cam angle, lighter than BD/WC cams & extendable tape which is mega for big trad quest pitches where your rack is vast. For small cammage always used aliens but just replaced them with Metolius master cams which are same sizing but seemingly far better construction. Great thing about both is their narrow profile. You'll get em in where no other small cam will go.

There's a plethora of good light trad draws......got 18 DMM phantoms which are  .

Slingage - Mammut thin dynemma tapes are ace...think beal do an even thinner one. 

We were on the main cliff on wednesday and my mate was blown away with lightness of this rack. 

[T_B]

I used to routinely carry a 0.5 and a 1, and regularly found good placements for these where nothing else would fit, but I never owned really small cams, so don't know if these have been superceded much now.

Exactly my experience, placed one only on wednesday, and I've done several routes where they are crucial. DMM 3CUs have come close to superseding the bigger sizes, but for one and two finger pockets its still a tricam or nothing (although Paul has a skyhook...). The other big benefit is they will go in anywhere a cam will, but for a fraction of the weight. They're a much cheaper and lighter way of doubling up your small cams, with the bonus of adding extra placements. Its a no-brainer.

Yeah, whatever. I've never seen anyone use 'em on trad, but I guess u know best 

[IanP]

Haven't read all the thread but have one thought.  I guess depends what you trad aims are but when I was climbing a lot of trad in Wales and on inland limestone I used to triple up on mid sized wires (rock 2/3 to rock 6/7) and would sometime still manage to have run out when faced with a perfect rock 4 placement.    Double for smaller and bigger was fine since micro wires and cams gave extra flexibility at either end.

[Andy B]

No routes that I climbed had 60m pitches, but they were exceptionally handy for the abbs (combined pitches on several occasions, one of which wasn't intentional  ).

I've used 60's for this, but often found that I ran into time consuming trouble abbing past belays to find that I was just short of the next one. (resulting in one of: prussiking back up rope, abbing off single bolts, or losing gear constructing my own belay). Shorter abs (within reason) can reduce rope snags, and make them easier to free up  too. Particularly if the bolter has thought through the position of the stations.