[monkey boy]

Carlo Traversi just sent Jade, 6th ascent
Cool pic

More to the point he downgraded it! Good lad!

[Paul B]

to what? (Can't see it on the blog of the all knowing swede)

[Doylo]

8b+, theres a surprise

[Johnny Brown]

didn't try danny's a lot

No you didn't. Not compared to the amount you talked about trying it.

[Stubbs]

Seeing as everyone else has taken 8C for it I guess it's 5 against 1! I was trying to find the bit he wrote on Deadpoint about how sponsored climbers should be role models and give back to the community and not swear: it was hilarious!

[monkey boy]

Yeah he comes off as twat on everything he does and says but props for suggesting a downgrade!

[Jim]

why props for suggesting a downgrade?

[Andy B]

I think it's fucking good that he's encouraging people not to fucking swear.

[clm]

note to self. not done rings for 2 yrs. not touched kettlebell for one yr. didn't try danny's a lot. people's perceptions never fail to amaze me

Well maybe if you spent time anywhere but your bedroom and the works peeps would build a more up to date picture.

[a dense loner]

i enjoy the myth/mirth too much

[shark]

i enjoy the myth/mirth too much

Every generation needs a Smythe

[a dense loner]

very good! did u see that straight away?

tho we are movin ever so slightly off topic. to put us back on track a friend of mine did gorilla warfare last wknd, rather significant methinks

[lukeyboy]

a friend of mine did gorilla warfare last wknd, rather significant methinks

WADDAGE! That's an outrageous ascent. Has he emailed ukc/8a a news report on it yet?

[shark]

very good! did u see that straight away?

You are crediting me with too much intelligence - it was an accidental pun. I deleted the karma point, but thanks.

[Drew]

More to the point he downgraded it! Good lad!

Surely if it was only 8B+, then a certain D. Graham would've climbed it first, several years ago, no?

[drdeath]

Hey , different strokes for different folks i guess...

[c.j.d.]

Different strokes indeed.  What's the bit about not swearing and the community?  Fuck the community, and fuck giving them anything back - cunts.

[fatdoc]

god bless this place
 

[Bonjoy]

Yeah he comes off as twat on everything he does and says but props for suggesting a downgrade!

Like Jim says, why props for the downgrade?
I tend to think that the climbing community’s habit of slapping people on the back for downgrading stuff on principle is a bad thing.
Don’t get me wrong, if something is overgraded then it deserves to be downgraded. What I don’t buy is the idea that this is a brave and charitable act on the part of the ascentionist. Downgrading can either be an honest expression, or an act of willy-waving one-upmanship. I think randomly (ie where you don't have good evidence to support the downgrade) handing out kudos on the basis of a downgrade only serves to encourage the latter motivation.
This whole ‘downgrading is always a good thing’ idea has given us the weird situation where ten people agreeing with a given grade is routinely overiden by one or two people suggesting a downgrade. Presumably this situation is borne out of a widely held belief that the downgrader is always being more honest than the climber voting for the status quo. Is this actually true?

[Doylo]

Some folk seem to have a complex about downgrading and declaring everything 'soft' regardless of whether it is or not.

[Bonjoy]

Yes and when asked to elaborate will always quote the worst undergrading anomalies as benchmarks. There certainly seems to be a school of thought that everything should be downgraded to fit in with a handful of Gaskin problems. Aside from being tedious this does nothing to make the work of guide writers any easier and leads to infrequently climbed problems being left behind as relics of ‘old school’ grading, whilst the grade of the popular stuff is bounced around by the whims of the latest crop of angry youth.
Benchmarks should be firmly middle of the grade. When classic long standing benchmarks gradually drift in either direction it indicates that the whole grade scale is being skewed by an excess of grade changes one way or the other.

[Pitcairn]

I dont think many people understand that grading is a science and the grade of a route or problem should be the mean or median value from the total number of ascentionists.  Of course its good that he suggests the grade he feels it warrants but thats 1 out of 6 or so ascents.  And maybe some other people who climbed the problem might agree with 8b+ rather than 8c now that someone has suggested.  But again it is a consensus and just because one person suggests a downgrade doesnt mean it has been downgraded.

IMHO.

[Johnny Brown]

that grading is a science and the grade of a route or problem should be the mean or median value from the total number of ascentionists

Hmm... a science? I guess the statistical bit could/ should be, but the opinions are still highly subjective. I guess that's no different from psychology though...

In the UK, its part of the national climbing psyche to say 'it wasn't too bad' than say 'it was the hardest ever. by anyone!'. Whilst I prefer that in many ways to the yank spray alternative, it does lead to conservatism in the grades, which is a problem. Has uk tech 7a officially been wrested back from the idiots yet? For anyone in the media spotlight though, its a tricky balance.

[Pitcairn]

Hmm... a science? I guess the statistical bit could/ should be, but the opinions are still highly subjective. I guess that's no different from psychology though...

In the UK, its part of the national climbing psyche to say 'it wasn't too bad' than say 'it was the hardest ever. by anyone!'. Whilst I prefer that in many ways to the yank spray alternative, it does lead to conservatism in the grades, which is a problem. Has uk tech 7a officially been wrested back from the idiots yet? For anyone in the media spotlight though, its a tricky balance.

You are right.  But I think that in an ideal world it should be a science where an individual grades a routes based on how it fits within his/her own database of experience, and then the actual grade of the route is a mean or median of a large number of ascentionists opinions.

In reality we as climbers are inevitably drawn towards either the conservative British-style approach or American-style spray approach. I agree that conservatism is generally more palatable but I feel (as is the case with science in general), many people and the climbing media (not just 8a!) just dont get it.

Anyway, interesting though it is, this is now seriously 

 

[Paul B]

many people and the climbing media (not just 8a!) just dont get it.

I find this statement quite amusing 

[slackline]

You are right.  But I think that in an ideal world it should be a science where an individual grades a routes based on how it fits within his/her own database of experience, and then the actual grade of the route is a mean or median of a large number of ascentionists opinions.

Ideally yes, but each individuals database of experience will be different by virtue of a) their varying morphology 'cause if you're > 190cm you're going to have a different sequence to my short arse height of 176cm (reading a guide book the other day there was a route that was 5c/6c (English) based on height); b) different problems in varying conditions. 

You might find that different people who are similar heights/ape-index tend to have opinions on grades that correlate though.

[Pitcairn]

Ideally yes, but each individuals database of experience will be different by virtue of a) their varying morphology 'cause if you're > 190cm you're going to have a different sequence to my short arse height of 176cm (reading a guide book the other day there was a route that was 5c/6c (English) based on height); b) different problems in varying conditions. 

You might find that different people who are similar heights/ape-index tend to have opinions on grades that correlate though.

Of course. This is why people have different opinions on grades and is exactly the reason why one needs a range of opinions from a range of different morphologies.  And this is the reason why people shouldnt crap themselves if they cant do a route of the same grade they did last week...

Getting even more 

 

[Adam Lincoln]

Another 8b+ vote for Jade, James Webb this time.

[SA Chris]

Getting even more 

To continue the offness, I think that morphology is a minor factor in grade variation. Even if two people have identical physical structures, their opinions on a grade of a problem can vary wildly, due to a dozen or so other factors. It's a quagmire for sure.

[account_inactive]

[Fiend]

Morphology always seems to be a minor factor for those people who can reach straight past hard moves 

[Jaspersharpe]

Morphology always seems to be a major factor for us whingeing shortarsed dwarf types. 

[Fiend]

 

[Pitcairn]

To continue the offness, I think that morphology is a minor factor in grade variation. Even if two people have identical physical structures, their opinions on a grade of a problem can vary wildly, due to a dozen or so other factors. It's a quagmire for sure.

Its not a quagmire!  Routes that have more specific moves that are either morphology or technique dependant will have a greater range of grades from ascensionists.  The real grade is still the mean or median but these problems have a large standard deviation - 7b +/- 1.5 grades rather than 7b +/- 0.5 grades.  I think its simple. 

 

PS.  There is NOTHING worse than whingeing shortarsed dwarfs 

[SA Chris]

Agree re shortarses, but don't want to discuss other further as too off topic already. Can it be extracted and continued on its own?

[Jaspersharpe]

Been done to death already. Best just to ignore them, which is easy enough.

[dave]

Best just to ignore them, which is easy enough.

We're talking about shortarses right? I just look straight ahead horizontally.

[Jaspersharpe]

Exactly.

[shark]

Agree re shortarses, but don't want to discuss other further as too off topic already. Can it be extracted and continued on its own?

Done !

[SA Chris]

Routes that have more specific moves that are either morphology or technique dependant will have a greater range of grades from ascensionists. 

Thank you IO1.

Surely any problem worth doing is dependent on morphology and / or technique to some extent? Struggling to think how any can't be?

[Paul B]

but these problems have a large standard deviation

and become meaningless just like my data points with a high standard deviation, they tell you diddly squat. This isn't AMA2010 its grades.

[slackline]

High variation/standard deviation isn't necessarily that bad a thing, what is the kurtosis like?

[Paul B]

stop it you're as bad as him.

[Pitcairn]

but these problems have a large standard deviation

and become meaningless just like my data points with a high standard deviation, they tell you diddly squat. This isn't AMA2010 its grades.

I dont agree, I think having a large variance tells you a lot about the nature of the problem (or dataset).  Im a geochemist and many processes I study involve a small shift in the mean or median but a big change in the range of values.  This is key to understanding the process.

Maybe its not so useful for grades - Im not suggesting that we have a new grading system with mean + SD (though it would work nicely for the numerical australian system eg. 26 +/- 1.75...  ) but if people are more aware that this is how it is on certain problems then there would be less crying/spraying/gnashing of teeth/toys being thrown from pram etc in general.

I read a study somewhere showing that shortarses are not only annoying but are stupid aswell.

[SA Chris]

I read a study somewhere showing that shortarses are not only annoying but are stupid aswell.

There are a couple of them who are cleverer than a brain pie, but I think they are just deviations (or is that deviants) from the mean.

[rodma]

I read a study somewhere showing that shortarses are not only annoying but are stupid aswell.

I'm sure I read a study about lanky ginger blokes having a tendancy to look down upon shortarse ginger blokes. I can't seem to remember the exact science, but it was definately something to do with morphology 

[Stubbs]

Hiked!

[c.j.d.]

Thats one of those problems that you wish was in the pass.  Looks mint - a proper boulder problem.

With regards to this down grading thing, maybe he just has strong fingers.  He may also have strong arms.  Imagine, he could just be strong.  And tall.... Ponder ponder....

[Jaspersharpe]

Must be easy if he could put his hat back on half way through doing it. I propose 8A+.

[dave]

But wait a minute, if katz can chance boots half way through mr fantastic then changing a hat has to be easier, I suggest 7c+.