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Ondrawad (Read 856155 times)

jwi

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#2050 Re: Ondrawad
December 14, 2020, 12:22:38 pm
For a more accurate measure of how condensed the rock will be I think you need to look at; air temperature, relative humidity, air pressure (these three are what determine the dew point), rock temperature, wind speed and direction.


I think you need both dry-bulb and wet-bulb air temperatures to determine the dew point exactly, but my classes in thermodynamics are more than twenty-five years behind me. Surely if the humidity is above 60% you can just linearise anyway? (Said with the confidence of a dilettante).

Still I doubt all those measurements are better than touching rock with skin.

m.cooke.1421

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#2051 Re: Ondrawad
December 14, 2020, 12:58:44 pm
I have absolutely no idea. It sounds like you have done a lot more than spend 10 minutes googling things which is the limit of knowledge on the subject. I just wanted to make the point that the rock conditions when Jim has climbed at 78% humidity could be vastly different to what Adam is contending with.

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#2052 Re: Ondrawad
December 14, 2020, 02:39:28 pm

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#2053 Re: Ondrawad
December 14, 2020, 03:41:05 pm
Some more climbing specific stuff here:

https://medium.com/@loukusa/science-friction-62058792d565

Not sure how good the science is , but backs up what I generally understood about relative humidity needing to be looked at in context of temperature which impact total amount of water that air can hold.  So relative humidty of 78% would be absolutely fine at 10 degrees, might be pretty sub-optimal at 20 degrees, and actively unpleasant by the time hit 25 degrees.

https://www.mrfixitbali.com/images/articleimages/dew-point-chart-full.pdf

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#2054 Re: Ondrawad
December 14, 2020, 04:26:55 pm
This page (https://www.e-education.psu.edu/meteo3/l4_p4.html) and the following three present all the science in the correct way. Bulk quantities of the air - like dew point - are a useful but crude proxy to what you really want to know.

What you really want to know is the rate of evaporation and condensation onto the rock surface. For this you need to know:

  • the temperature of the water on the rock's surface (which we can assume to be the same as the rock)
  • the temperature of the water vapour just above the rock's surface (which we can assume to be the same as the air)
  • the number density of water molecules just above the surface[\li]
The relative humidity is some complex function of ii and iii, but measured for the air in bulk. This can be quite different to the conditions near the rock's surface. The air just above the rock can be at a quite different temperature to the bulk air temperature if it's still, since the rock will cool a layer above it.  See also dank limestone caves.

The rock temperature might be near the ambient temperature, or well above or well below it; depending on the history of heating (sun, shade, wind) - sometimes over timescales of a day or two if it's a big lump of rock.

Put all this together and you can understand phenomena like limestone caves condensing the day after a temperature spike. You can also imagine creating a mathematical model that is a relatively robust predictor for conditions on any given day, but it's going to be a lot more complex than a toy hygrometer, and no more reliable than going by feel on your warm up. 

remus

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#2055 Re: Ondrawad
December 14, 2020, 05:28:20 pm
Put all this together and you can understand phenomena like limestone caves condensing the day after a temperature spike. You can also imagine creating a mathematical model that is a relatively robust predictor for conditions on any given day, but it's going to be a lot more complex than a toy hygrometer, and no more reliable than going by feel on your warm up.

I've been contemplating a project where you'd build little remote sensing stations that'd gather data from key crags around the peak. You'd then use that data to predict conditions at the crag on a given day, work out when's the optimal time to go for your last burn of the day, predict seepage etc.

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#2056 Re: Ondrawad
December 14, 2020, 05:59:43 pm
Rock temp is the hardest to get. For that ideally you’d drill a series of holes of different depths with a sensor at the bottom of each one. Rock has a low thermal inertia - so takes a long time to warm up and cool down etc. That’s the key to working out the condensation game...

But it needn’t be a fancy bit of rock. An old bit of choss next to the road might work etc..

Unfortunately from experience of placing sensors in the field (usually rain gauges/flow gauges) its humans who are the problem - ripping them up or pinching bits. Because they can etc...

It’s something I’ve mused about too.

dunnyg

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#2057 Re: Ondrawad
December 14, 2020, 06:05:42 pm
Put them half way up a cliff so they atleast have to put some effort in. Saying that, the places I've seen camera traps disappear from suggests nowhere is safe!
Get a grant proposal in!

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#2058 Re: Ondrawad
December 14, 2020, 06:20:22 pm
Put all this together and you can understand phenomena like limestone caves condensing the day after a temperature spike. You can also imagine creating a mathematical model that is a relatively robust predictor for conditions on any given day, but it's going to be a lot more complex than a toy hygrometer, and no more reliable than going by feel on your warm up.

I've been contemplating a project where you'd build little remote sensing stations that'd gather data from key crags around the peak. You'd then use that data to predict conditions at the crag on a given day, work out when's the optimal time to go for your last burn of the day, predict seepage etc.

Throw in some ML and AI, and you have an innovate UK funding proposal sorted!

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#2059 Re: Ondrawad
December 14, 2020, 06:32:01 pm
What with climbing being in the olympics and all that I’m sure we can swing some extra ££.

Anyway - in Ondranews I see from his IG that he now has 250k YouTube subscribers... plucked from google I found this:

Quote
The average YouTuber with a million subscribers makes about $5000 a month.

So that might explain a bit of the funding model...

SA Chris

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#2060 Re: Ondrawad
December 14, 2020, 09:45:08 pm


I dunno, I can feel when it is sticky or not. Don't really think a measuring device other than the skin is necessary..

If I can't click my fingers they're too hot to climb anything. That bar is probably a bit high for hard sends though.

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#2061 Re: Ondrawad
December 14, 2020, 11:12:31 pm
What with climbing being in the olympics and all that I’m sure we can swing some extra ££.

Anyway - in Ondranews I see from his IG that he now has 250k YouTube subscribers... plucked from google I found this:

Quote
The average YouTuber with a million subscribers makes about $5000 a month.

So that might explain a bit of the funding model...

Why bother for about a £1000 a month? Hardly seems worth the effort and stress?

remus

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#2062 Re: Ondrawad
December 15, 2020, 07:08:26 am
If his numbers are anything like lattice he'll be making a lot more than £1k/month with 250k subscribers.

tomtom

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#2063 Re: Ondrawad
December 15, 2020, 08:33:19 am
If his numbers are anything like lattice he'll be making a lot more than £1k/month with 250k subscribers.

Adam needs to get an old sofa to chat on - making sure he makes all his conversation points clear by talking slowly and repeating them three times 😁

Maybe we should start a campaign on his YouTube comments and get him to explain humidity? 👍😂

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#2064 Re: Ondrawad
December 15, 2020, 10:26:03 am
What with climbing being in the olympics and all that I’m sure we can swing some extra ££.

Anyway - in Ondranews I see from his IG that he now has 250k YouTube subscribers... plucked from google I found this:

Quote
The average YouTuber with a million subscribers makes about $5000 a month.

So that might explain a bit of the funding model...

Why bother for about a £1000 a month? Hardly seems worth the effort and stress?

Because Black Diamond are paying him £2000 an episode? And Sportiva, and (maybe) Volkswagen...?

remus

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#2065 Re: Ondrawad
December 23, 2020, 11:22:30 am
Having someone follow you on a boulder problem with a fan is so passé, looks like the new cool is to have a lackey on a rope following you up the route with a fan


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#2066 Re: Ondrawad
December 23, 2020, 12:14:47 pm
Having someone follow you on a boulder problem with a fan is so passé, looks like the new cool is to have a lackey on a rope following you up the route with a fan
We could be getting very close to an imaginary line that should not be crossed.
While I'm typing this, I hear the tiniest violin on Earth playing for Ondra, who had only 5 actual days on the route on 44 spent climbing in Spain during a World tragedy.
That was really a bad taste moment.
Luckily...

abarro81

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#2067 Re: Ondrawad
December 23, 2020, 12:24:20 pm
Even by my standards that seems a bit excessive!


I hear the tiniest violin on Earth playing for Ondra, who had only 515 actual days on the route on 44 spent climbing in Spain

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#2068 Re: Ondrawad
December 23, 2020, 02:32:10 pm
That looks like the least fun climbing trip ever. For everyone.

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#2069 Re: Ondrawad
December 23, 2020, 02:42:14 pm
Ignoring the fan (ridiculous) and the attitude shown (nothing really new here, he's always been one of the loudest climbers about) I've really enjoyed this series.

The tension built at times has been good, the videos are very well produced and it's pretty refreshing to follow along with the process and to have seen him fail. It goes against the grain of video after video showing nothing but victories. Yes he's pretty whiny at times but part of the reason he's the world's best climber is that he cares so much and every little thing matters.

Agree that it doesn't look like much fun for anyone but that's kind of the reality of projecting; it's hard work! Type 2 fun but emotional rather than physical suffering maybe.

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#2070 Re: Ondrawad
December 23, 2020, 02:47:47 pm
He’ll feel good for about 20 minutes when he does it then it’ll wear off and it’ll be onto more torture on the next thing. Funny old sport .

Bradders

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#2071 Re: Ondrawad
December 23, 2020, 02:51:00 pm
Madness init.

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#2072 Re: Ondrawad
December 23, 2020, 03:01:54 pm
Yes he's pretty whiny at times but part of the reason he's the world's best climber is that he cares so much and every little thing matters.


This. Elite athletes do not get to elite status with a happy go lucky attitude.

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#2073 Re: Ondrawad
December 23, 2020, 04:19:37 pm
Yes he's pretty whiny at times but part of the reason he's the world's best climber is that he cares so much and every little thing matters.


This. Elite athletes do not get to elite status with a happy go lucky attitude.

And maybe a bit of shock to his system - his climbing career has overwhelmingly been about success so far.  Even where he's had to project really hard it's been on first ascents and he's repeated more of other peoples hardest routes that anyone else in the world. In this case its a route that's already had 3 ascents and despite it not being his style and he may have hoped to get it done fairly quickly.

T_B

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#2074 Re: Ondrawad
December 23, 2020, 04:42:36 pm
He looks like he’s fighting, not flowing. Interesting to watch. Not sure the excuses are doing him any favours at this point as he just doesn’t look like he’s strong enough on that mono. Even when he makes it through the move he’s knackered!

 

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