[Serpico]

Serpico, obviously as a complete punter I'm not in a position to contend your training knowledge, but didn't Rich Simpson go in for one armers in a big way? I'm guessing he must have thought it was helping his climbing.

I know what works for one doesn't always work for another but I presume there must have been some rationale behind it, and he did acheive pretty high in quite a short space of time.

Don't look at what someone can do, to see what is necessary to climb hard look at what they can't. If you take 2 9a climbers - one can juggle and one  can't, it'd be pretty obvious that juggling is not necessary for climbing 9a (despite what they might say on UKC).
The weakest climber sets the entry level qualifications for the grade.

[Three Nine]

Simpson had a breadth of climbing experience on rock in different styles etc. way before he started climbing exclusively in a garage in Redditch. He could also do multiple one-armers when he was totally shit at climbing. His brother did 1-4-7 on his campus board without ever having climbed.

This suggests to me that doing lots of one armers/having an absurd amount of power cant shortcut having to do lots of climbing to be good at rock climbing.

[Paul B]

I'm going to have to disagree here. Being strong as f*ck can help your climbing in the short term.

However, the simple fact is that its a very inefficient and daft direction to take. Once you're really strong you'll find the temptation to just yard through on everything meaning you climb really inefficiently, you'll soon realise that people much weaker than you can outperform and it'll be incredibly frustrating. Chances are you'll also turn into a one trick pony.

Its also incredibly difficult (although not impossible) to retro-learn technique when you have the physical ability to just ignore it. If you do go down this route you'll have to bite the bullet one day and go back to basics. Or get lost in a downward spiral of competitive training and barely setting foot outside except perhaps for a hanful of times a year to confirm that you are not yet strong enough.

This isn't the best order to do things in.

[SA Chris]

Serpico, obviously as a complete punter I'm not in a position to contend your training knowledge, but didn't Rich Simpson go in for one armers in a big way? I'm guessing he must have thought it was helping his climbing.

He may have done, but I suspect (in fact I am almost certain, based on footage I have seen, and seeing him outdoors), that they were just a tiny part of his training program and that he also had excellent footwork, great body tension, and did enough campus boarding that he could pull down hard on very small holds rather than just be able to yard off what essentially the biggest jug possible (a bar).

[chris_j_s]

He may have done, but I suspect (in fact I am almost certain, based on footage I have seen, and seeing him outdoors), that they were just a tiny part of his training program and that he also had excellent footwork, great body tension, and did enough campus boarding that he could pull down hard on very small holds rather than just be able to yard off what essentially the biggest jug possible (a bar).

I agree with you, I know it was only a tiny part and I'm aware that he did lots of other (more specific) forms of training plus lots of real climbing. Don't get me wrong I'm really not saying that you should just train one armers or even that it should be a major component of your training regime but it was part of his routine and he does recommend it in the fingerboard routines on the moon website. This is in conflict with most of the advice on this thread basically saying don't bother, they won't help you.

[Three Nine]

We weren't saying that they wouldn't help anyone, just that they wouldn't help Omar very much. It is pretty obvious that regular days outside learning how to rock climb would benefit him more than any amount of one armers.

[Paul B]

and you've ignored what Serpico pointed out. Rich was incredibly strong, one might say overly strong.
I'd also say the moon fingerboard article has been superceeded these days by the beastmaker 3-2-1 knowledge 

[SA Chris]

This is in conflict with most of the advice on this thread basically saying don't bother, they won't help you.

I don't think people are saying that. It seems to me that the gist of the advice is that the ability to do a one armer is pretty insignificant, compared to the broad suite of other strengths and abilities that you can train that you would otherwise lack, if you concentrated your time and effort on this one small aspect with the aim to climbing at any high standard.

And this seems comes from a pretty broad range of climbers who have posted who climb (or have climbed) at significantly high grades to know what they are talking about (and I exclude myself from this group)

[galpinos]

[To be able to do 5 one-armers I would have to train one-armers to the detriment of other more important (in my opinion) aspects of climbing development.

And which part of your intensive training regime would you have to cut back on Nik? The cake eating or the lego making? 

[Darren S]

Paul_B hit the nail on the head: Its also incredibly difficult (although not impossible) to retro-learn technique when you have the physical ability to just ignore it. If you do go down this route you'll have to bite the bullet one day and go back to basics.

 It sounds that you have enough basic strength but you need to focus that strength/power and that is by using technique.
 My advice is that you should go outside have fun and climb lots of easy stuff but always try to do it the easiest sequence possible and don't power through it. Of course if one armers are your idea of fun then go for it.
I did something similar, got reasonably strong (not strong enough to do a one armer tho) then disciplined myself for 10 months working on technique. If I had the chance I would go back and do the technique first then the strength. The following winter I managed a few hard ascents in quick time ( well they were hard back then).

[chris_j_s]

We weren't saying that they wouldn't help anyone, just that they wouldn't help Omar very much. It is pretty obvious that regular days outside learning how to rock climb would benefit him more than any amount of one armers.

Fair enough, I should really read the thread properly before replying! 

and you've ignored what Serpico pointed out. Rich was incredibly strong, one might say overly strong.
I'd also say the moon fingerboard article has been superceeded these days by the beastmaker 3-2-1 knowledge 

I didn't ignore it at all, he might have been overly strong but he achieved exactly what he wanted to in climbing and in relatively short order so I would disagree with the implication that it was inefficient. Surely in reality its impossible to balance all of the facets of your physical condition and ability so that they are always 'only just' what you need to achieve your goals - you're probably always ahead in some areas and behind in others.

Yes, I guess the beastmaker articles have superseeded the moon articles but the beastmaker guys don't ignore one armers either - in fact they have made a (light hearted) performance table showing which beastmaker holds have been 'one-armered'...

Anyway I'm sorry to be dragging this thread out longer than necessary, I do understand that training should be balanced and not over emphasise one area to the detriment of others.

[SA Chris]

I did something similar, got reasonably strong (not strong enough to do a one armer tho) then disciplined myself for 10 months working on technique. If I had the chance I would go back and do the technique first then the strength. The following winter I managed a few hard ascents in quick time ( well they were hard back then).

Likewise. I climbed loads on the local Quartzite in SA and could bone the fuck out of the dirtiest little crimps and pinches on steep ground, then moved to Leeds and couldn't climb gritstone for shit. Spent the first summer (enjoyably I might add) just getting out and bouldering locally and learning loads of useful stuff.

[Paul B]

he achieved exactly what he wanted to in climbing and in relatively short order so I would disagree with the implication that it was inefficient.

I was reffering to efficiency within his climbing not in achieving goals. Like I said higher up, pure strength can be a great way to achieve short term goals but as a long term stratergy its highly flawed.

Yes, I guess the beastmaker articles have superseeded the moon articles but the beastmaker guys don't ignore one armers either - in fact they have made a (light hearted) performance table showing which beastmaker holds have been 'one-armered'...

again further up I pointed out that there is a big difference between one-arming a bar and a tiny hold. The latter being more applicable obviously. Dong more one armers on a bar is never going to lead to being able to one arm tiny hold. Time could be better spent, oh I don't know, hanging from a tiny edge?

I did something similar, got reasonably strong (not strong enough to do a one armer tho) then disciplined myself for 10 months working on technique. If I had the chance I would go back and do the technique first then the strength. The following winter I managed a few hard ascents in quick time ( well they were hard back then).

Likewise. I climbed loads on the local Quartzite in SA and could bone the fuck out of the dirtiest little crimps and pinches on steep ground, then moved to Leeds and couldn't climb gritstone for shit. Spent the first summer (enjoyably I might add) just getting out and bouldering locally and learning loads of useful stuff.

Surely this is THE most recurring theme right now.
I was lucky enough to spend 6 months last year travelling and solely climbing. I didn't need to enforce a non-training mindset it just happened naturally. I think this went a good way towards redressing my imbalance between strength and technique (althought to borrow a beastmaker industries phrase), I'm still front wheel drive.
If I had the chance again I'd do it in reverse. Its the natural way.

[nik at work]

[To be able to do 5 one-armers I would have to train one-armers to the detriment of other more important (in my opinion) aspects of climbing development.

And which part of your intensive training regime would you have to cut back on Nik? The cake eating or the lego making? 

[benpritch]

personally speaking i have found that having the strength to do one armers is quite beneficial and this isn't for the obvious reasons. when i have put effort into doing one armers i have found a significant increase in my ability to hold small holds. all i can put this down to is that having a bit of excess power makes you less likely to squirm and move around on said hold allowing worse holds than usual to become useful. hope that makes sense.

[Darren S]

I do not disagree with you Ben that it works for you, especially combined with the technique you have already,  but it sounds like the OP has bags of strength but is lacking somewhat in the technique department and with a bit of focus upon technique would reap the greatest benefits rather than concentrating on doing 5 one armers in the vain hope that 1 one armer=existing climbing grade(font7b) so therefore 5 one armers=much higher grade(font8b??????). We all know from experience that climbing doesn't work like this.

[Omar15]

Hmm, I can see what you're all saying. In fairness I don't think my technique is horrific - its definitely not amazing or particularly good, but its improved a lot. I've found that the things that have improved it most are problems I find difficult, that I can't just pull through because then im forced to use some semblance of technique - I think anyone can climb well at easier grades and I don't really see I'd gain anything from climbing loads of easy problems efficiently.

And I don't think think that being able to do 5 one armers would catapult me to 8B, nothing of the sort. I just think that being able to do 5 would help me more than being able to do 3. I don't see how, at the end of a session when I can't climb anymore, working one arm strength using the ideas in the first few posts would harm.

Clearly it would help to get out bouldering (im just not particularly psyched for sport) on real rock, but since im in Bristol with only a motorbike for transport thats a bit of a logistical problem. I've heard there are areas around (we're going to the wye valley or somewhere on wednesday) but there's not really anything brilliant, so i just spend most of my time indoors.

[Nibile]

i think that doing more one armers can help one's climbing, not as a feat in itself, but for what it means.
doing 1 one armer sets you at a certain level of power. doing 5, sets you at a different level of power. having more power, often means lasting longer on a climb, because every single move tires you down less. you execute the moves more easily and this help loads. i have experienced this on my own at the gym: despite never training endurance, sometimes i do long circuits, and it's not uncommon for me to flash circuits of 7c or 7c+ in the 25/30 moves.
all that's been said for technique is true, on the other side, but being stronger does help. obviously by stronger i mean generally and specifically stronger, i.e. doing more one armers AND on smaller holds.
re. rich simpson
let's not forget that one of his goals was action directe. if you are not a professional, sponsored climber who can go there whenever you can, but have a limited time and so on, you want to get at the base of the route SURE that you have plenty to throw at it. if you are not even able to do the single moves, you aren't going to climb the route fo' sho'.
finally, wanting to do "more", regardless of its usefulness, it's what pushes me forward.

[SA Chris]

This might be of use

http://esotericbouldering.com/bristol/

Also

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=42811

Plus if you network a bit when bouldering down the wall , rather than spend your time trying to 5 one - armers, you might be able to hook up with other locals for lifts and stuff. Or is that too sensible

[Omar15]

Thanks Chris, I thought the bathford boulders were meant to be chossy wank but apparently not - I'll try and see if anyones up for having a look. Burton coombe on esoteric bouldering looks fairly okay.

And networking, no. that would mean i have to talk to people.

[Three Nine]

Hmm, I can see what you're all saying. In fairness I don't think my technique is horrific - its definitely not amazing or particularly good, but its improved a lot. I've found that the things that have improved it most are problems I find difficult, that I can't just pull through because then im forced to use some semblance of technique - I think anyone can climb well at easier grades and I don't really see I'd gain anything from climbing loads of easy problems efficiently.

And I don't think think that being able to do 5 one armers would catapult me to 8B, nothing of the sort. I just think that being able to do 5 would help me more than being able to do 3. I don't see how, at the end of a session when I can't climb anymore, working one arm strength using the ideas in the first few posts would harm.

 

[Omar15]

hahaha mark i thought you might say that when i posted it.

[Fiend]

In fairness I don't think my technique is horrific - its definitely not amazing or particularly good.

<snip>

And I don't think think that being able to do 5 one armers would catapult me to 8B, nothing of the sort. I just think that being able to do 5 would help me more than being able to do 3.

Hmmmm. First quote suggests a logical alternative to the second quote.

[Nibile]

anyway, back on topic.
i have trained one armers by doing footless bouldering at the end of the session but also as the main excercise of a session.
i also used to end every session doing as much one armers as i could.
moreover, i have done a few cycles of excentric excercises, with also added weight, but these have a very long supercompensation time.
also, during the summer i just do weights and i see a general power gain also in one armers.

[slackline]