[SA Chris]

but the guy who apparently mostly resembles me has never been seen doing anything and has also become a legend

Yul Brynner?

[Johnny Brown]

Ondra looks like Su Pollard / an ostrich / Screech off Saved By The Bell and it's not done him any harm

Yeah, I agree. If a certain woman was similarly good I don't think it'd hold them back either. Which is why I'm not sure Stu has a point about hot women and surfing. And exhibit B - I'm gorgeous and yet no one ever sponsored me. 

[Doylo]

And exhibit B - I'm gorgeous and yet no one ever sponsored me. 

There's only so many front covers of Brad Pit and West Side Story that people can take 

[a dense loner]

Which is why i said I'm not sure Stu had a point it was like reading something from fear and loathing. All we can get from this debate is everybody hates Barrows cos he's too tall, Steve Mc has the strongest fingers cos he's the lightest, and not a lot of women talk utter tripe on ukb like we do to pass the time when we can't go climbing.

Johnny you were, still are?, one of the Blox team are you not? Judging from the amount of vids, 8a etc, I've seen with everyones sponsorship claims i'd say you were on good money from it. Maybe time to ask Aidy for a rise

[Johnny Brown]

Ha. Blox!

[Jaspersharpe]

 

[Footwork]

I am mildly disgusted by this thread. It seems that everybody, short arses and streaks-of-piss alike, can agree that being slightly taller than somebody is no distinct advantage.
Yet whenever I have ever burnt off somebody else, the same excuse gets trotted out.

"Ooo you properly lanked that", they quaver.

Never has anybody had the good grace to say "Gosh, you're climbing better than me today".

It's a fuggin' diz grace.

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=10347.0
 

What about that time you did pistol whip and I didn't, using the exact same beta... you lanky piece of piss

[JulieM]

I've looked into the WCS before but it's never taken my fancy. I don't feel like I'm the target audience. As a female climber, I can't say that I've ever felt like I was being held back by my gender. I'm not sure what issues women face in climbing that men don't - to me it seems like a particularly equal opportunities sport with a more level playing field between the genders than many other sports I've done. I mean, I've had the odd patronising remark or the unspoken '...for a girl' after a comment that I'm climbing well but they've been few and far between.

That said, I think women can find getting into climbing (or any sport) more difficult than their male counterparts initially as they will often have done less sport when they're growing up. We have a culture that largely encourages girls to be good and pretty, to avoid rough play and where it's acceptable to aspire to be a princess or a WAG when they grow up. When sport is encouraged it's usually as a way to get the bikini body you always dreamed of or to make the guy you fancy notice you. So it's no wonder that it feels tough to start out. Those aren't issues that are specific to climbing or in any way the fault of the climbing community, they're things that women need to work through themselves but if a women's climbing symposium helps then I have no problem with it.

The height thing is a funny one and I often change my mind on this (usually dependent on how well I'm climbing). As a particularly stumpy (5'2"ish) climber I find that indoor climbing is generally harder for the short but outdoors is much more of a mixed bag. Deviation from the norm means that grades are sometimes going to be wonky (and I'm sure this applies as much to the tall as the short) but obviously I only ever notice the moves which I find reachy and completely forget about the hideously bunched up ones.

[JulieM]

One other thought on the height thing. There's a lot you can do if you're short but also strong and flexible. If you're short AND weak it could be pretty demoralising!

[Will Hunt]

I am mildly disgusted by this thread. It seems that everybody, short arses and streaks-of-piss alike, can agree that being slightly taller than somebody is no distinct advantage.
Yet whenever I have ever burnt off somebody else, the same excuse gets trotted out.

"Ooo you properly lanked that", they quaver.

Never has anybody had the good grace to say "Gosh, you're climbing better than me today".

It's a fuggin' diz grace.

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?topic=10347.0
 

What about that time you did pistol whip and I didn't, using the exact same beta... you lanky piece of piss

I can't help you being a woeful climber, Ben. Get some tekkers in your feet

[Will Hunt]

Incidentally that should have come with this:
 
But I know you know that.
 

[Stu Littlefair]

Those aren't issues that are specific to climbing or in any way the fault of the climbing community, they're things that women need to work through themselves but if a women's climbing symposium helps then I have no problem with it.

Crikey. I had a shocking day at work today, so only just managed to read these replies.

Thanks, Julie, for being about the only woman bothered to reply. The quote above says in about twenty words what I tried to say in my whole blog post.

I guess in more detail I'm only about 80% sure that women need to "work through themselves". Take body image, for example. I know a few women who have felt very self conscious follow remarks by men on their muscular appearance. It's not unreasonable to ask for a bit more tact from men in this regard. But in many respects I agree.

In response to Dense and JB:

Dense, I'm not at all offended you though these posts were nonsense. From you that's almost high praise.

JB - I'm surprised you don't think there are problems with women's surfing. I'd have thought it would be obvious to even a blind visitor from another planet, with limited access to the Internet. 

[Johnny Brown]

Sorry, I didn't mean to say that, I see it reads a bit like that. I meant to say I didn't think you had a point comparing surfing to climbing.

In the last few weeks I've learnt that S B-C is a better climber than I'd assumed, and if looks helped men Pasquill would be drinking champagne on his yacht right now...

[gme]

The surf girl issue has actually improved of late, since the Biarittz fiasco a few years ago when the promo video for a womens world cup event didnt actually show any surfing, and is a bit of a weird one due to the fact that they do actually dress like like to surf so pretty much every picture you get of them is like the one you used in your post. Also like the top female climbers you see many of the top female surfers are not skinny little things when you see them in the flesh, in fact i would suggest they are pretty solid looking and athletic so a good role model for other females. I would suggest that a lot of the skinnier looking girls are models more than surfers and are using the surf image to sell stuff rather than the fact the person is a great surfer, a bit like SBC in climbing. There are obvious exceptions like Alana blanchard, but most of the top 20 are not model like.

I do feel however that this is not just a women thing. Men are portrayed in the media in just the same fashion, every male used in adverts gives out the same notion of perfection that you get with the women, but i just think we get over it. I know i dont look like david gandy or beckham but i dont loose any sleep over it, maybe the girls need to just get over the whole thing, does anyone in climbing really criticise them for having muscles, if so just tell them to fuck off. Outside of climbing or sport they might get a few comments but i would put money on it the person making the comment wouldnt be happy stood naked in front of a mirror.

[Johnny Brown]

Yeah. I'm sure in any sport if you want to get rich you need to be really good at the sport AND a nice/ interesting person AND great looking AND commercially astute. You can get by with one or two but all four is obviously the whole package. Often very best are that bit better because they haven't got room in their lives for anything else - and so they might not make as much money as the person at #3.

[JulieM]

I guess in more detail I'm only about 80% sure that women need to "work through themselves". Take body image, for example. I know a few women who have felt very self conscious follow remarks by men on their muscular appearance. It's not unreasonable to ask for a bit more tact from men in this regard. But in many respects I agree.

I take your point about body image. It's one of the reasons I'm glad they got rid of the DFBWGC thread - yes, you got a lot of pictures of strong women crushing and looking good but I remember seeing a few comments on there about certain women looking too beefy. It's disappointing to hear comments like that from climbers, people who you'd expect to understand the hard work and effort involved in getting strong and appreciate it.

For me, one of the great things about getting involved in sport was moving from thinking of my body as a collection of bits, more or less valuable based on their perceived attractiveness to the opposite sex, to considering my body as a wonderful amazing thing that lets me ride my bike for a hundred miles, walk up mountains and crank hard (well, hard for me!). With that mindset, hearing the odd comment about being beefy or looking scary just makes me think the person making it is a small minded dickhead, but without that confidence I'm sure it would bother me a lot more.

[JulieM]

I do feel however that this is not just a women thing. Men are portrayed in the media in just the same fashion, every male used in adverts gives out the same notion of perfection that you get with the women, but i just think we get over it.

I don't agree with this. Women are clearly far more heavily scrutinised on their appearance, including sportswomen. Just look at the Beth Tweddle Twitter Q&A debacle, John Inverdale's comments on Marion Bartoli and the amount of abuse that Rebecca Adlington has faced. Women in the public eye are expected to be young, groomed and attractive and older or ugly women to either botox/facelift themselves into submission or retire gracefully and stop making everyone else feel uncomfortable.

I'm not saying that this is the fault of men, in fact the worst culprits for making women feel shit about themselves are the women's magazines, but the focus on women's appearance in the media is overwhelming and it's fucking depressing.

[Johnny Brown]

In my limited experience, negative comments about muscles have come from older non-climbing female family members.

[Teaboy]

but I remember seeing a few comments on there about certain women looking too beefy. It's disappointing to hear comments like that from climbers, people who you'd expect to understand the hard work and effort involved in getting strong and appreciate it.

For me, one of the great things about getting involved in sport was moving from thinking of my body as a collection of bits, more or less valuable based on their perceived attractiveness to the opposite sex, to considering my body as a wonderful amazing thing that lets me ride my bike for a hundred miles, walk up mountains and crank hard (well, hard for me!). With that mindset, hearing the odd comment about being beefy or looking scary just makes me think the person making it is a small minded dickhead, but without that confidence I'm sure it would bother me a lot more.

I'd like to think that comments from climbers about how muscly a woman looks are not intended pejoratively, maybe just badly worded? I don't know a climber who isn't impressed by a big set of guns and shoulders whether they be on a man or a woman. I can't think of any female athlete (body builders aside) who's physiques are that far outside the norm of an 'average' healthy woman.

[JulieM]

I'd like to think that comments from climbers about how muscly a woman looks are not intended pejoratively, maybe just badly worded? I don't know a climber who isn't impressed by a big set of guns and shoulders whether they be on a man or a woman.

They might not be meant pejoratively but if you're already a bit self-conscious then it would be easy to take it the wrong way.

I can't think of any female athlete (body builders aside) who's physiques are that far outside the norm of an 'average' healthy woman.

Thus speaks someone who's never got stuck in a tight dress in Primark's changing rooms!

[IanP]

I do feel however that this is not just a women thing. Men are portrayed in the media in just the same fashion, every male used in adverts gives out the same notion of perfection that you get with the women, but i just think we get over it.

I don't agree with this. Women are clearly far more heavily scrutinised on their appearance, including sportswomen.

I agree, does any sensible person really believe tha sportsmen are judged by appearance to the same extent as sportswomen?  The fact that men are judged at times does not mean that this is not a more significant issue for women's sport

[Stu Littlefair]

Yeah. I'm sure in any sport if you want to get rich you need to be really good at the sport AND a nice/ interesting person AND great looking AND commercially astute.

I don't agree with this at all, I'm afraid. We're not talking about getting rich, we're talking about reaching the highest level athletically (many athletes reach the top of their game without being a commercial success). In many sports reaching an elite level has nothing to do with appearance. It obviously does in surfing. I think climbing may be going that way, but I'm happy for people to disagree.

[Stu Littlefair]

I'd like to think that comments from climbers about how muscly a woman looks are not intended pejoratively

I think they almost never are. They may indeed be intended as a complement. It's just a bit insensitive not to realise that most women won't take it that way...

[gme]

Yeah. I'm sure in any sport if you want to get rich you need to be really good at the sport AND a nice/ interesting person AND great looking AND commercially astute.

I don't agree with this at all, I'm afraid. We're not talking about getting rich, we're talking about reaching the highest level athletically (many athletes reach the top of their game without being a commercial success). In many sports reaching an elite level has nothing to do with appearance. It obviously does in surfing. I think climbing may be going that way, but I'm happy for people to disagree.

It isnt like that in surfing either. Take the commercial side of it away and those reaching the top of the sport get there because they are the best not what they look like.

However, to chuck a spanner in the works, the use of images of  beautiful girls in bikinis makes it marketable to the masses and now means that there is more money to be had for the top athletes. What SBC has done might do the same for climbing.

[Stu Littlefair]

Sorry Gav, that's just nonsense.

Take a look at the top 18 athletes on the women's world championship tour (http://www.aspworldtour.com/athletes/tour/wct) and tell me with your hand on your heart that that's an average cross section of sporty women.

Nonsense.