[Pantontino]

Busy weekend on the Welsh crags. Can't believe how much snow there is, and they are forecasting more all this week!

http://news.v12outdoor.com/2010/02/22/erazerhead-viii-8/

[petejh]

Dave and Si are owning it!

It was good to do Travesty right after Tora Bora so I could compare the two. I don't understand what's going on with the technical grades on harder winter routes. There's definitely no move on Travesty which in isolation would be harder than easy 7 (maybe 6) but once you're going for it there's no real rest holds -  grade VIII is spot on because it's quite physical for a short spell. I was pumped silly on it but to put it in perspective I've done virtually nothing this winter - the only bit of drytool training I've done is 1 afternoon at gideon, 1 hour doing laps on Ibex and half an hour on the circuit at Indi, plus two half hour sessions on the axes at home on a pullup beam - all this spread over four months, I wasn't very fit. If I was fit I'd be very confident of onsighting Cracking Up. Which says a lot for how physically hard winter climbing really is. It doesn't mean it's not brilliant though, it feels full on in the head and I love it.

I think it would be better in Wales if we either forget about trying to identify a single technical move or sequence on a pitch and instead go with a technical number for the overall physical feel of the climbing, in which case maybe 8 might make sense fro something like Travesty.
Or, be honest about the relative easiness of moves/sequence in isolation and grade them accordingly because to be honest the majority of moves in trad mixed are a variation on 'good hook and pull up' or 'tenuous hook and balance up'. If I'm not having to figure-four to reach the next hold or fully commit to a full lock on a steinpull then in my opinion it 'aint technical 8/9 unless it's a very balancey slab. VIII 6 doesn't have to mean it's serious, it also makes sense for something very physical too. I'd quite like to get some people's views on what would make good benchmark routes for mixed technical grades 6 - 9 in Wales so standards move on without stupid grades getting dished out to talk about on our next slideshow lecture tour or magazine article.
By the way Si I think El Manco is definitely VI 6 *** on reflection/comparison, last winter it was my second route of the season, a bit rusty and I found that awkward ledge harder than everyone else I spoke to.

[Pantontino]

By the way Si I think El Manco is definitely VI 6 *** on reflection/comparison, last winter it was my second route of the season, a bit rusty and I found that awkward ledge harder than everyone else I spoke to.

The grades in N Wales are in a right mess at the moment. As I mentioned in my email earlier today I have a plan to try and sort this out for the Winter supplement we are planning to publish for next season, but just to focus upon the example you give:

I haven't done El Mancho for 10 years so probably should keep my mouth shut, however at the time Leigh (who was far more experienced than me) reckoned it was the same grade as Central Grooves and Neanderthal in Glen Coe (i.e. VII 7). We did do it with heavy verglas, so perhaps we missed some placements?
 
Funnily enough I've just spoken to Phil Dowthwaite who did it on Sunday and he said he thought it would get VII 7 in Scotland; he compared it to Central Grooves. Also, he said he did Tilt VI 7 last week and it felt a full grade easier than El Mancho.
 
Maybe it's just one of those routes that feels a lot harder (i.e. much more than you would expect) in very snowy or iced up conditions?

I don't mind what grade it ends up as (honest  ), as long as it matches roughly what happens in Scotland. And perhaps at the end of the day, El Mancho is a bad route to have as a benchmark - it may be one of the high profile routes that everybody wants to get on, but it does seem to give people very different experiences.

[SA Chris]

I have a plan to try and sort this out

Just don't try grading anything VIII+ 8+

[Ian Parnell]

Alright Pete and Simon, here's my two pennies worth re Clogwyn Ddu routes.
El Mancho - middle VI,7 3stars or 4 stars if using scottish system! Sorry not close to VII
Blenderhead -low VII,8 1 or 2 stars very cruxy now its lost turf, rest is easy though.
Traversty odd VIII,8 1 or 2 stars I definately think its got a grade 8 move probably two - the transfer from the steep flakes to the tiny hooks that pull you round into the shallow groove at the start of the slab. Then the moves across the slab to the offwidth are thin 7 edging on 8.  I think you were just going well Pete, although I suspect I wasn't - eary in the season, getting lost plus any other excuses I can think of 
Cracking Up - thats fighting talk Pete, I'm sure it'll be in condition again this season - go for it.

[petejh]

Hi Ian, fair play I was hoping you'd be able to give us your opinion on those routes. Like Si says it would be really good to get some discussion going about the technical grades, the wiki would be a good place because I'd guess most on there are psyched and it's relevant to them, pub would be better but you'd never get everyone there at the same time. I'm honestly pretty baffled by what a technical 8 move should be, trust me I'm not being egotistical I just couldn't see how any move on Travesty, even leaving the flake on the nose which I had to try 3 or 4 times to get right, is any more than a simple - in the context of being pumped silly - hook a small nubbin, place monopoint on small dink, step right, repeat until belay or fall off because you can't hold the axe any longer but not because you can't work out how to do the move. Any of those moves is  technical 6 in isolation, easy 7 to be generous - which is why I'm confused. I think Chris P is the same - his route Cannon Ball he gives VI 9 because it's a nails sequence but super-well protected. That makes sense to me.
Anyway nothing takes away from the brilliance of deciding to head out across that ground with axes in the first place.

[Pantontino]

I have a plan to try and sort this out

Just don't try grading anything VIII+ 8+

    

[Pantontino]

Alright Pete and Simon, here's my two pennies worth re Clogwyn Ddu routes.
El Mancho - middle VI,7 3stars or 4 stars if using scottish system! Sorry not close to VII
Blenderhead -low VII,8 1 or 2 stars very cruxy now its lost turf, rest is easy though.
Traversty odd VIII,8 1 or 2 stars I definately think its got a grade 8 move probably two - the transfer from the steep flakes to the tiny hooks that pull you round into the shallow groove at the start of the slab. Then the moves across the slab to the offwidth are thin 7 edging on 8.  I think you were just going well Pete, although I suspect I wasn't - eary in the season, getting lost plus any other excuses I can think of 
Cracking Up - thats fighting talk Pete, I'm sure it'll be in condition again this season - go for it.

Good feedback Ian - exactly what we need, but it would be useful if you also added the conditions under which your ascents took place (or any other mitigating factors, such as fitness level, injury, hangover etc...).

That way it will be easier to assess both the typical/common condition of a route (a good example here, albeit at a much more amenable level, is Grecian 2000 - when Lew Hardy and Ray Wood first climbed this back in the 80s the top pitch had almost continuous ice, whereas now it typically forms as ice running into a mixed pitch) and the way in which conditions affect the grade - i.e. some routes won't change much in varying conditions, while others will.

[Ian Parnell]

Simon re conditions, Clogwyn Du will always be less affected grade Wise than say the Black Ladders - where routes could go from grade VI to being unclimbable.  With Clogwyn Du its just a question of reliability of gear if the cracks are iced and how much hoar and digging is required.  For my ascents of Blenderhead and El Mancho I had easy conditions light hoar and ice free cracks.  For Travesty standard conditions i.e. medium deep hoar so a little digging on the crux pitch, and icy cracks only on the two easier pitches which were actually quite hard work in deep hoar.

Re grades I've only done 5 winter routes in Wales (Scott Report VII,7/8 and Longlands VII,8 being the other two)so it's difficult for me to compare with other Welsh routes.  However unless you want to promote the parochial novelty of a welsh specific system I see no reason why they shouldn't just fit in with the UK/Scottish system.  Getting tech grades right can be difficult just look at summer rock which has much more stable conditions where some used the tech grade as cumulative over a whole pitch and other isolated moves, or at bouldering where it had to be dropped, and folk still argue over the existence of British 7a.  So Pete I think you are using a different system for the tech grades than me.  Here's my rough personal guidelines.  Note the difficulty comes not just from the physical demands of the move but the technical challenge perhaps the axes needs to be held in a specific way with pressure kept on throughout the move, the intricacy of the sequence and the security of placements.  Your description of Travesty and the fact that it took you 3-4 goes to make the hooks work to me is a perfect description of grade 8.
Tech 5 - on ice its your basic move i.e. 2 good axe and 2 good crampon placements, total security you can usually swing anywhere above for the next move - i.e. very simple, the difficulty comes merely from hanging on the axes on steepish (vertical ground).  The equivalent on mixed would have the same security of placements i.e. decent secure hooks and physicality i.e. you do have to reach and pull but little more.
Tech 6 - on ice nearing the limit, either physically very challenging i.e steps of overhanging ice (not on ice even 3-4 degrees past vertical can feel noticably tough) or technically demanding, thin ice where the pressure and precision of placements is crucial.  On mixed precise footwork is essential, on the whole placements will be secure but perhaps angle specific, a sequence is likely to be pumpy.
Tech 7 - pretty much the limit on ice, sustained overhanging or long stretches of thin ice where you can't swing but have to chip placements.  On mixed thin sketchy angle specific placements for several moves or butch "locking off" pulls such as round roofs i.e. El Mancho
Tech 8 - mixed a combination of both fiddly pop-offable hooks and hard pumpy pulls the crux of Blanderhead is a good example, thin okish hook for right hand, poor slopey 50% hook for left, feet poor and scrabbly and steepish.
Tech 9 - very long lock offs on very iffy hooks with poor feet, or extremelt strenuous moves such as fig fours at the lip of roofs.  The Crack would be your Welsh benchmark, Ive not be on it, but sustained overhanging moves into further overhanging moves with either rattly full axe torques or poor thin hooks.  Other examples I've done are Nevermind in N Corries can openers (poor feet) to slopey hooks no feet (crampon smearing) or The Duel Glen Coe, long lock off from hooks over 3mm chips in verglas, very poor feet to 5mm slopey directional torque
Tech 10 &11 you'll have to ask Dave Mac I can conceive 10s as proper axe dynos, or opposition/compression moves through roofs.

Gosh that was a long post apologies to bouldering regulars I'm sure normal service will be resumed.

[Ian Parnell]

While we are at it grade wise, Pete interested to hear Chris's grade for Canon Ball VI,9 - thats a very rare grade and a little surprising for a fairly big route.  Chris obviously used to use the old school system i.e when VI was the living end, I suspect he is still using a version of that.  Routes with tech 9 moves could have an overall grade from VI through to X with X,9 being loads of 9 moves with ground fall potential and VI,9 one very hard move amongst much easier climbing such as a single pitch with tech 5 climbing capped by a very difficult roof.

[Pantontino]

However unless you want to promote the parochial novelty of a welsh specific system I see no reason why they shouldn't just fit in with the UK/Scottish system.

The last thing I want is a Welsh specific grading system. I believe we should be aiming for parity with modern Scottish grades. Unfortunately many of the grades in the 1988 guide are way out of line with the Scottish system, and people appear to be applying a mix of old and new standards to new routes.

As for Chris Parkin, I know that he accepts the need to shift to a modern grading system (we talked about it on a shared belay on the Ladders last week).


Oh, and good effort typing that extensive grade explanation out. 

[Dave Garry]

I like Pete's Idea

We might be in Beris for the film festival ..should we sort all of this out over beer nuts and thumbwars

 

[Ian Parnell]

Alright Dave, any chance of emailing me a squiggle on a photo as to where Erazerhead goes?  does it follow the E1/2 at all Hebenwi?

[Dave Garry]

Ian

I think Si did one for Peter to put on the wiki ..I will get him to send you a copy.

yes it starts up hebenwi, but where hebenwi moves right (to blenderhead) we went slightly left up to a flared flake

the next pitch took the groove above this (I dont think its been done in summer, maybe wrong though! I often am) until it pushed you out left agin into a steeper broken groove.

good line, but run out, delicate and pumpy.


 

[Ian Parnell]

Good effort, I held Rich Cross's ropes on an attempt on this the day I did Travesty.  Seemed very feisty with poor gear. He had in a "two tap" pecker with what seemed like crux moves to make, after a fair ammount of upping and downing he ran away. So to you guys

[Dave Garry]

Si put a pecker in too just below the buldge ...

where did he get to... and how did he get off? we saw no insitue  gear !

[Ian Parnell]

about feet level with his pecker (Oeer missus!) Basically from the toe of the buttress/approach gully to El Mancho, straight up an obvious groove to ledge/flake (old situ gear to left, then straight up a faint weakness over a bulge poor sling on protruding thing and pecker up left.  Still bulging slightly left to try to gain thin flared flake crack.  It looked like a couple more moves here to an easing of angle, although no obvious gear in sight. Rich down climbed and abbed off old situ gear (slings on peg? maybe in horizontal break).  Any of this ring a bell?  perhaps you were a little right as there was another weakness there.

[Dave Garry]

 that sounds right but hard to tell  ...a little pertruding knobby thing was used with a weighted sling and the pecker went in a little higher on the left ...

didnt see the insitu ..but it could have been covered .. only peg we came across was high on the face..a most welcome sight too



 

[Ian Parnell]

yes that sounds right Rich kept going on about a dodgy pertruding knob and his protection falling off

[benpritch]

and folk still argue over the existence of British 7a. 

who does?

[Johnny Brown]

Up until the last couple of seasons, all of my winter climbing had been done in Wales. I've really bored my partners by announcing at the top of every grade V in scotland 'Hmm. I've done harder IVs in Wales.' In my (mid-grade) experience Welsh grades are harder. This might be just because the Welsh guide is so much older, or that the routes haven't been repeated much, but the scales are a way apart at the mo.

A new guide would be the answer. Say the North Atlantic Oscillation manages to dominate and we get seven or eight more of these winters before the warming kicks back in. Enough time to produce and get a return on a guide? I reckon so. Go on Si, take a punt...

[chummer]

In my (mid-grade) experience Welsh grades are harder. This might be just because the Welsh guide is so much older,/quote]

You're right there Adam, speaking to Parkin they rarely gave above grade V especially for shorter stuff or anything they didn't wear they're rucksacks for! VI was reserved for really hard stuff that it seems we would give VII or even VIII for now.


We definitely don't want a N.Wales specific system, something we all seem to agree on, so this has got to be sorted some how. I'm keen for pub and thumb wars proposal..Interestingly when I did El Mancho with the legend that is The Parkin he thought the move through the roof was 'easy VII' despite my protests that it must be no harder than VI. Another friend thought it was no harder than V, although he is a bit of a beast! No wonder the grades are everywhere. We ain't got a fuckin clue here it seems. Obviously we need to sort out bench marks routes, such as El Mancho and go from there.
Ooh how we look forward to a new supplement or guide....over to you Mr Panton and Baggy..

[chummer]

Dunno what happened there with my post, it's all one big quote????

[petejh]

Dunno what happened there with my post, it's all one big quote????

 

[petejh]

I mostly agree with that list of tech grades Ian but I still don't think there's any move harder than easy 7 or solid 6 on Travesty. When I said 3 or 4 goes for the move round the nose I meant 3 or 4 goes to SEE which hook to use, not to work out the move - which was pretty straightforward if a bit balancey when you're pumped but defo not 8 IMO. I'd grade it VIII 7 (VIII 6/7 if I was being very harsh). Similarly El Mancho VI 6 (contradicting what I thought last winter when I did it), that move pulling into the top crack would be a benchmark 6 move IMO.

Routes with tech 9 moves could have an overall grade from VI through to X with X,9 being loads of 9 moves with ground fall potential and VI,9 one very hard move amongst much easier climbing such as a single pitch with tech 5 climbing capped by a very difficult roof.

X 9 should also be able to mean sutained pumpy 9 but with decent gear a'la E3 5c - doesn't have to mean runout.
Grade grades grades but worth getting a sensible consenus.
I think Chris has changed Cannon Ball to VII 9 on the wiki - sounds ace.

[Dave Garry]

your on Chummer .....I'm warming my thumbs up now .. 

I have little thumbs and a dicky eblow, is there some sort of system we can use to even it out ?

All we need now is a Venue & Time .... plus a few more members of the climbing community.

would the bolt fund put out for the beer d'yea think?   

[Pantontino]

Up until the last couple of seasons, all of my winter climbing had been done in Wales. I've really bored my partners by announcing at the top of every grade V in scotland 'Hmm. I've done harder IVs in Wales.' In my (mid-grade) experience Welsh grades are harder. This might be just because the Welsh guide is so much older, or that the routes haven't been repeated much, but the scales are a way apart at the mo.

A new guide would be the answer. Say the North Atlantic Oscillation manages to dominate and we get seven or eight more of these winters before the warming kicks back in. Enough time to produce and get a return on a guide? I reckon so. Go on Si, take a punt...

Some of the old grades are a joke. Try The Sting at IV/V (we thought VI!); even 'standard' IVs like South Gully or Left hand Y Gully would probably warrant V in Scotland. That said, not all the old grades are wrong - I reckon Maria is right at V, same with Gallipoli at V.

Mind you, people talk of Western Gully being a V - maybe it would just scrape this grade if you take the cop out right hand variant in the middle and the slab pitch is fully iced up, but if you do the direct pitch in the middle and the slab is in typical condition, i.e. mostly ice free it is (imo) VI 6/7. There is a world of difference between this route and classic Scottish Vs.

Baggy admits that he was using very harsh grades with a lot of his new routes last year - both of the supposed IVs of his (Arch Gully and Needle Eye Climb) that I have repeated on Glyder Fach this year I felt were solid Vs (and excellent by the way, if anybody is looking for an alternative to the usual venues).

As for the guide - Andy Newton did contact me about producing a full updated version of the 88 guide (he is keen), but I think a better solution might be to stick to the original plan with Baggy and produce a smaller scale supplement. That way it will definitely be out for next season. Then further down the line pull it all together with a full updated version - after all there is bound to be another wave of new routes next season (which I will describe in hyperbolic news reports as 'Last Great Projects' just to wind Baggy up.  )

[chummer]

after all there is bound to be another wave of new routes next season (which I will describe in hyperbolic news reports as 'Last Great Projects' just to wind Baggy up.  )/quote]

WHAT? You mean there's more than one Si?......

[Dave Garry]

Si

I mentioned this to Pete on sunday - how about a palm sized binder with waterproof/laminated inserts. The binder comes with full coverage at time of print but when all the new routes pop up, you update should you want to, page by page. or by update packages that slot neatly into your shiney binder. I am sure there would be a bit of re-purchase value to this once pages get worn or lost too.   

From a users point of view it would be great, when you are out for the day you just take the pages you need. Vital info on the back and some sort of Add for dead good rope and stuff. 

tis just an idea ...

Checks made payable to the make Dave Garry rich fund

[Ian Parnell]

  I'd buy one.

[Johnny Brown]

Mind you, people talk of Western Gully being a V - maybe it would just scrape this grade if you take the cop out right hand variant in the middle and the slab pitch is fully iced up, but if you do the direct pitch in the middle and the slab is in typical condition, i.e. mostly ice free it is (imo) VI 6/7. There is a world of difference between this route and classic Scottish Vs.

Did this yesterday, which only deepens my confusion. It maybe just in the best nick ever, but it felt like steady V, including the direct middle bit, and if that crux pitch is 7 I'm Ueli Steck. The hardest pitch all day was the second pitch of the direct finish, though, which is down as 4?

I think part of the problem maybe that I did Y-gully left years ago in very lean nick (though still on ice) and have since used it as my benchmark IV. The photo on the wiki of supposedly lean conditions look enormous!

[petejh]

It's me in that photo on Clogwyn Lefthand, I suppose what isn't obvious from the pic is that the ice was rotten, delaminated from the rock and was falling down as I was trying to pull out onto it. I've been on it in good conditions as well which is why I used the term 'lean' in the caption, maybe that's a bit misleading. I know what you mean in that it gets a lot leaner then that and is still climbable.  But yeah that highlights one of the problems (joys?) with defining difficulty for winter conditions, and with photos of winter routes for that matter - a trickle of good ice in the right spot can make so much difference, especially on cruxes.
That slab on W.Gully was bone dry when I did it and it felt like one single very well protected move of 7 to exit the slab. But I know people who've climbed the entire slab on neve and thin ice and it felt like 5 to them. The middle direct pitch certainly felt VI 6 to me seconding and the leader. I entered W.Gully on the topo as VI 6/7 because from consensus it's 'usually' harder than most V 's which aren't graded from 1980's Welsh grades. Maybe it should be entered as V 5 - VI 7, as should so many winter routes, but this looks a bit messy. Good example - Devil's Kitchen has ranged from being a single pitch IV 6 to a grade I snow plod over the years (according to legend!)

Hey, it's winter climbing and there's so many variables involved, lots more than sport and summer trad and we can't even agree on some sport grades, so there's no hope with some winter routes like W.Gully

Alaska grade 1 - 3 should cover most winter routes in the UK. Anything above that gets ABO. Simple.

I'm sticking to drytooling mountain trad roofs from now on, at least you know what to expect 

[Johnny Brown]

Good knowledge Pete. Every route I do I seem to get further away from understanding the grade!

Yesterday there was plenty of snice stuck to the crux slab though it mostly fell straight off. I wasn't expecting the two massive spike footholds underneath that appeared from underneath though, from stood on the second there were good placements high left and you were away. Great neve lower down though, I think it's just in really good nick.

Alaska grade 1 - 3 should cover most winter routes in the UK. Anything above that gets ABO. Simple.

That's my kind of grading system!

[petejh]

Ahh that would explain it. Great photo that. I know people who've done that pitch in that nick but I've never seen a photo, nice one, yes very good nick. That last move you mention, when there's just dry rock/shallow turf to reach for it's pretty tenuous and fall off-able. (That photo would look good on the topo btw if you're interested!)

[Pantontino]

Adam, I don't think it is that confusing really - the simple truth is that some routes vary enormously in difficulty, others don't.

And winter climbing is never going to be as definiable as summer rock climbing, even the most subtle change in snow/ice consistency can change a route from desperate to steady.

When I did WG with Adam Wainwright earlier this year we were both shocked by how full on it felt for a supposed V - it wasn't that early in the season, we had both been out loads climbing supposedly harder routes, but neither of us could equate what we were experiencing with Scottish grade V.

We thought the lower 3 pitch was 5 and serious (tricky move into a niche which would have been nasty to fall off), the middle direct probably VI 6 (the start was thin and steep; even once I was wedged in the main chimney/groove it felt pretty sketchy) and the slab pitch perhaps tech 7 - it was completely bare save for a dribble of thin ice in the groove on the left.

Funny old world. 

(Interesting angle on the pic of the slab pitch - the snow must have been well banked out to get in position for that!)

[petejh]

We thought the lower 3 pitch was 5 and serious (tricky move into a niche which would have been nasty to fall off),

I led that pitch and also found it quite hard/scary/crappy gear, - however don't tell anyone else  but there's actually a bomber wire behind your head out left on that niche and which is hard to spot on the tunnel vision lead. I missed it but my second pointed it out as he ambled up the pitch and it protects the tricky niche nicely 

[El Mocho]

I had just persuaded Adam that, based on our performance on WG, we were ready to 'step it up' on to some VIIs and maybe even some VIIIs. There I was dreaming of Traversty, Engineers slab... and now it is going to be back to those grade V gullies.

Loving all these winter threads, maybe we need a whole new sub forum to keep us keen over the summer 'Welsh Winter Chuffin'.

Pritch: what is all this talk of English 7a? Are you tripping. I once had a dream where I imagined an 7a move but then I woke up in a cold sweat.

[Johnny Brown]

I don't think it is that confusing really

Well you see its just that having heard all these stories we went up there expecting a fight... and  ended up doing a daft variation to the last pitch just to get some spice in!

We thought the lower 3 pitch was 5 and serious (tricky move into a niche which would have been nasty to fall off), the middle direct probably VI 6 (the start was thin and steep; even once I was wedged in the main chimney/groove it felt pretty sketchy) and the slab pitch perhaps tech 7 - it was completely bare save for a dribble of thin ice in the groove on the left.

Interesting! Those tricky steps were still there, but they tended to have bomber neve above and over very quickly. Now's the time to do it!

Reading my old guide, it pretty much describes the route exactly as it was yesterday - ie brilliant nick, steady V, whereas the wiki seems to be tending towards describing the more common lean/ marginal conditions. Neither is right or wrong of course but on which you place the emphasis? I guess the weather of the next couple of seasons will decide...

based on our performance on WG, we were ready to 'step it up' on to some VIIs and maybe even some VIIIs.

I'm still believing it word. We were amazing up there. I didn't know that kind of a connnection was possible with another human being.

[El Mocho]

I'm still believing it word. We were amazing up there. I didn't know that kind of a connnection was possible with another human being.

Pity you weren't as connected with all my gear which you kept chucking off the route 

Carefull with this talk, next thing you know and you'll have split up with Ellie and moved to Slovenia.

You fancy another trip over next week? Maybe wednesday?

[Johnny Brown]

Dropping gear is just another way I was channelling Steve House.

I'm psyched out of my tiny mind. Forecast looks good mon-tues at the mo.

[Pantontino]

And now there is another IX, courtesy of yer man Petejh:

http://news.v12outdoor.com/2010/03/08/traversty-direct-ix-9/

All this beautiful alpine weather and the snow is refusing to budge from the peaks. I was nursing a LLAMFF hangover yesterday so ended up climbing on Yellow Wall at Gogarth - sweating in a t-shirt! Hoping to get back on the white stuff one day this week.

[Johnny Brown]

Wowzers.

You can't ask for much more than a choice of Gogarth in a t-shirt or quality mixed climbing.  Life is good right now.

[Dave Garry]

Well you did better than I this weekend Si.

I watched Pete grunt his way up his new line, Lurgyfide and feeling like shite ..chose not to climb due to the super melt that turned du into a shower. In the pub by 2pm, Dave Mac at LLAMFF by 6pm, pub again then party till ?

Sunday was not a climbing day ... breathing was hard enough.

Still got the lurgy today... 

Well Done again Pete......  Vii 9 you say ?     

[Pantontino]

Dave, I also managed to go bouldering on Sat whilst nursing an equally bad hangover from the Friday night George and Noel quiz followed by late night Fricsan partying, and still made it back to the village to see Caff and Pete/Jack's lectures. Crazy weekend!

Feeling pretty flaked out today, but just making arrangements for tomorrow now...

[Pantontino]

Oh, forgot to say, I've just seen Miles and he described Traversty Direct as a bit like a V6 boulder problem (or a V4 at the Indy Wall  )!

[Johnny Brown]

Did Dave Mac get to sample a bit of welsh climbing then?

[Ian Parnell]

Well done Pete, Travesty Direct had been in the back of my mind but you snooze you lose.

[petejh]

Thanks, it's a cracking pitch and I hope someone tries to O/S it soon.

I replied to your post on ukcommercial.

[chummer]

Wowzers.

You can't ask for much more than a choice of Gogarth in a t-shirt or quality mixed climbing.  Life N. Wales is good right now.

 Soo good to come back home to two new mega lines on Clogwyn Du from Pete and Andy and this awesome sunny weather. There is no where else I'd rather be right now, if only there was some powder laden slopes too...   

Those tricky steps were still there, but they tended to have bomber neve above and over very quickly. Now's the time to do it!

Then that's what we'll do tomorrow then. Happy days!

[Johnny Brown]

Sounds like conditions have been best first thing. Worth getting up early!

[chummer]

Indeed they were but it seemed to stay cold all day, no dripping ice at all. Went up there today with Panton and it was exactly as you describe, fookin great route, I think Si was suprised just how different it was from when he last did it, especially the slab. We did the direct finish too which was well worth doing, I crept into the fun mixed corner on the left to avoid some rotten ice which was a great way to finish, could have been your tracks I followed?

[Johnny Brown]

Good effort guys, I'm jealous, would have happily done it again! Sounds exactly like our tracks - the direct finish had nice ice for the first ten metres, then a bit of a ledge (possible belay), tried to continue direct but soon got a bit spicy - so moved left, into a mixed corner. Ice wasn't rotten, just thin. Hardest pitch of the day?

At the easy ground above I traversed a good ten metres right to a crap belay on an arete, then Ben went up the corner and arete right again - not very logical but he hadn't had much to lead til then!

Encouraging that its still in good nick anyway, will hopefully squeeze another day in before it warms up...

[chummer]

Aye, ice was a little thin and a bit cruddy too higher up. Yep, hardest pitch of the day, a good 55m ish, some great hooks though which were welcomed after the spooky ice, looking like the gullies at least will stay in good nick for a while, just praying for some good hoar for the buttresses now, Flanders looked very good, as did Pyramid Buttress Direct....aghh, so much to do, so little time..
Saw your tracks out right, we did wonder about them!

[Pantontino]

Another fantastic day out with perfect blue sky weather, and luckily the Met Office prediction of a mid day warming proved to be bogus.

The route felt much steadier this time: the moves into the niche on the first pitch were blessed with solid neve placements, plus I got a good hook in before I committed (I probably trust these things far too much, but when there's nothing else they really save the day).

The ice pillar/chimney pitch was also quite different - last time I could barely reach the gear in the roof and the ice was thin and would only accept placements in one narrow seam. This time I had to bow my head down under the roof where there is an in situ peg; the ice was bomber switching immediately to solid neve placements.

And then came the slab pitch - last time we had dropped right down and rocked round onto the base of a bare rock slab, moved across right, then teetered back up left (at one point changing mono points on a rock smear!) to some very thin and marginal placements in the groove. The groove remained tenuous all the way, by which time the gear was well below your feet.

This time I stepped off a high snow ledge onto the ice/snowed up arete with perfect placements, clipped an in situ wire on the right and waltzed up an easy groove with a big smile on my face!

So there you have it: grade VI for an early season ascent, V for late and 4 stars on the Scottish system either way. Another good bit of guidebook research in the bag! 

Here's a pic of Chummer on the direct finish:

http://news.v12outdoor.com/wp-content/uploads/WGDF_600_P2090024.jpg