[Pantontino]

Busy weekend on the Welsh crags. Can't believe how much snow there is, and they are forecasting more all this week!

http://news.v12outdoor.com/2010/02/22/erazerhead-viii-8/

[petejh]

Dave and Si are owning it!

It was good to do Travesty right after Tora Bora so I could compare the two. I don't understand what's going on with the technical grades on harder winter routes. There's definitely no move on Travesty which in isolation would be harder than easy 7 (maybe 6) but once you're going for it there's no real rest holds -  grade VIII is spot on because it's quite physical for a short spell. I was pumped silly on it but to put it in perspective I've done virtually nothing this winter - the only bit of drytool training I've done is 1 afternoon at gideon, 1 hour doing laps on Ibex and half an hour on the circuit at Indi, plus two half hour sessions on the axes at home on a pullup beam - all this spread over four months, I wasn't very fit. If I was fit I'd be very confident of onsighting Cracking Up. Which says a lot for how physically hard winter climbing really is. It doesn't mean it's not brilliant though, it feels full on in the head and I love it.

I think it would be better in Wales if we either forget about trying to identify a single technical move or sequence on a pitch and instead go with a technical number for the overall physical feel of the climbing, in which case maybe 8 might make sense fro something like Travesty.
Or, be honest about the relative easiness of moves/sequence in isolation and grade them accordingly because to be honest the majority of moves in trad mixed are a variation on 'good hook and pull up' or 'tenuous hook and balance up'. If I'm not having to figure-four to reach the next hold or fully commit to a full lock on a steinpull then in my opinion it 'aint technical 8/9 unless it's a very balancey slab. VIII 6 doesn't have to mean it's serious, it also makes sense for something very physical too. I'd quite like to get some people's views on what would make good benchmark routes for mixed technical grades 6 - 9 in Wales so standards move on without stupid grades getting dished out to talk about on our next slideshow lecture tour or magazine article.
By the way Si I think El Manco is definitely VI 6 *** on reflection/comparison, last winter it was my second route of the season, a bit rusty and I found that awkward ledge harder than everyone else I spoke to.

[Pantontino]

By the way Si I think El Manco is definitely VI 6 *** on reflection/comparison, last winter it was my second route of the season, a bit rusty and I found that awkward ledge harder than everyone else I spoke to.

The grades in N Wales are in a right mess at the moment. As I mentioned in my email earlier today I have a plan to try and sort this out for the Winter supplement we are planning to publish for next season, but just to focus upon the example you give:

I haven't done El Mancho for 10 years so probably should keep my mouth shut, however at the time Leigh (who was far more experienced than me) reckoned it was the same grade as Central Grooves and Neanderthal in Glen Coe (i.e. VII 7). We did do it with heavy verglas, so perhaps we missed some placements?
 
Funnily enough I've just spoken to Phil Dowthwaite who did it on Sunday and he said he thought it would get VII 7 in Scotland; he compared it to Central Grooves. Also, he said he did Tilt VI 7 last week and it felt a full grade easier than El Mancho.
 
Maybe it's just one of those routes that feels a lot harder (i.e. much more than you would expect) in very snowy or iced up conditions?

I don't mind what grade it ends up as (honest  ), as long as it matches roughly what happens in Scotland. And perhaps at the end of the day, El Mancho is a bad route to have as a benchmark - it may be one of the high profile routes that everybody wants to get on, but it does seem to give people very different experiences.

[SA Chris]

I have a plan to try and sort this out

Just don't try grading anything VIII+ 8+

[Ian Parnell]

Alright Pete and Simon, here's my two pennies worth re Clogwyn Ddu routes.
El Mancho - middle VI,7 3stars or 4 stars if using scottish system! Sorry not close to VII
Blenderhead -low VII,8 1 or 2 stars very cruxy now its lost turf, rest is easy though.
Traversty odd VIII,8 1 or 2 stars I definately think its got a grade 8 move probably two - the transfer from the steep flakes to the tiny hooks that pull you round into the shallow groove at the start of the slab. Then the moves across the slab to the offwidth are thin 7 edging on 8.  I think you were just going well Pete, although I suspect I wasn't - eary in the season, getting lost plus any other excuses I can think of 
Cracking Up - thats fighting talk Pete, I'm sure it'll be in condition again this season - go for it.

[petejh]

Hi Ian, fair play I was hoping you'd be able to give us your opinion on those routes. Like Si says it would be really good to get some discussion going about the technical grades, the wiki would be a good place because I'd guess most on there are psyched and it's relevant to them, pub would be better but you'd never get everyone there at the same time. I'm honestly pretty baffled by what a technical 8 move should be, trust me I'm not being egotistical I just couldn't see how any move on Travesty, even leaving the flake on the nose which I had to try 3 or 4 times to get right, is any more than a simple - in the context of being pumped silly - hook a small nubbin, place monopoint on small dink, step right, repeat until belay or fall off because you can't hold the axe any longer but not because you can't work out how to do the move. Any of those moves is  technical 6 in isolation, easy 7 to be generous - which is why I'm confused. I think Chris P is the same - his route Cannon Ball he gives VI 9 because it's a nails sequence but super-well protected. That makes sense to me.
Anyway nothing takes away from the brilliance of deciding to head out across that ground with axes in the first place.

[Pantontino]

I have a plan to try and sort this out

Just don't try grading anything VIII+ 8+

    

[Pantontino]

Alright Pete and Simon, here's my two pennies worth re Clogwyn Ddu routes.
El Mancho - middle VI,7 3stars or 4 stars if using scottish system! Sorry not close to VII
Blenderhead -low VII,8 1 or 2 stars very cruxy now its lost turf, rest is easy though.
Traversty odd VIII,8 1 or 2 stars I definately think its got a grade 8 move probably two - the transfer from the steep flakes to the tiny hooks that pull you round into the shallow groove at the start of the slab. Then the moves across the slab to the offwidth are thin 7 edging on 8.  I think you were just going well Pete, although I suspect I wasn't - eary in the season, getting lost plus any other excuses I can think of 
Cracking Up - thats fighting talk Pete, I'm sure it'll be in condition again this season - go for it.

Good feedback Ian - exactly what we need, but it would be useful if you also added the conditions under which your ascents took place (or any other mitigating factors, such as fitness level, injury, hangover etc...).

That way it will be easier to assess both the typical/common condition of a route (a good example here, albeit at a much more amenable level, is Grecian 2000 - when Lew Hardy and Ray Wood first climbed this back in the 80s the top pitch had almost continuous ice, whereas now it typically forms as ice running into a mixed pitch) and the way in which conditions affect the grade - i.e. some routes won't change much in varying conditions, while others will.

[Ian Parnell]

Simon re conditions, Clogwyn Du will always be less affected grade Wise than say the Black Ladders - where routes could go from grade VI to being unclimbable.  With Clogwyn Du its just a question of reliability of gear if the cracks are iced and how much hoar and digging is required.  For my ascents of Blenderhead and El Mancho I had easy conditions light hoar and ice free cracks.  For Travesty standard conditions i.e. medium deep hoar so a little digging on the crux pitch, and icy cracks only on the two easier pitches which were actually quite hard work in deep hoar.

Re grades I've only done 5 winter routes in Wales (Scott Report VII,7/8 and Longlands VII,8 being the other two)so it's difficult for me to compare with other Welsh routes.  However unless you want to promote the parochial novelty of a welsh specific system I see no reason why they shouldn't just fit in with the UK/Scottish system.  Getting tech grades right can be difficult just look at summer rock which has much more stable conditions where some used the tech grade as cumulative over a whole pitch and other isolated moves, or at bouldering where it had to be dropped, and folk still argue over the existence of British 7a.  So Pete I think you are using a different system for the tech grades than me.  Here's my rough personal guidelines.  Note the difficulty comes not just from the physical demands of the move but the technical challenge perhaps the axes needs to be held in a specific way with pressure kept on throughout the move, the intricacy of the sequence and the security of placements.  Your description of Travesty and the fact that it took you 3-4 goes to make the hooks work to me is a perfect description of grade 8.
Tech 5 - on ice its your basic move i.e. 2 good axe and 2 good crampon placements, total security you can usually swing anywhere above for the next move - i.e. very simple, the difficulty comes merely from hanging on the axes on steepish (vertical ground).  The equivalent on mixed would have the same security of placements i.e. decent secure hooks and physicality i.e. you do have to reach and pull but little more.
Tech 6 - on ice nearing the limit, either physically very challenging i.e steps of overhanging ice (not on ice even 3-4 degrees past vertical can feel noticably tough) or technically demanding, thin ice where the pressure and precision of placements is crucial.  On mixed precise footwork is essential, on the whole placements will be secure but perhaps angle specific, a sequence is likely to be pumpy.
Tech 7 - pretty much the limit on ice, sustained overhanging or long stretches of thin ice where you can't swing but have to chip placements.  On mixed thin sketchy angle specific placements for several moves or butch "locking off" pulls such as round roofs i.e. El Mancho
Tech 8 - mixed a combination of both fiddly pop-offable hooks and hard pumpy pulls the crux of Blanderhead is a good example, thin okish hook for right hand, poor slopey 50% hook for left, feet poor and scrabbly and steepish.
Tech 9 - very long lock offs on very iffy hooks with poor feet, or extremelt strenuous moves such as fig fours at the lip of roofs.  The Crack would be your Welsh benchmark, Ive not be on it, but sustained overhanging moves into further overhanging moves with either rattly full axe torques or poor thin hooks.  Other examples I've done are Nevermind in N Corries can openers (poor feet) to slopey hooks no feet (crampon smearing) or The Duel Glen Coe, long lock off from hooks over 3mm chips in verglas, very poor feet to 5mm slopey directional torque
Tech 10 &11 you'll have to ask Dave Mac I can conceive 10s as proper axe dynos, or opposition/compression moves through roofs.

Gosh that was a long post apologies to bouldering regulars I'm sure normal service will be resumed.

[Ian Parnell]

While we are at it grade wise, Pete interested to hear Chris's grade for Canon Ball VI,9 - thats a very rare grade and a little surprising for a fairly big route.  Chris obviously used to use the old school system i.e when VI was the living end, I suspect he is still using a version of that.  Routes with tech 9 moves could have an overall grade from VI through to X with X,9 being loads of 9 moves with ground fall potential and VI,9 one very hard move amongst much easier climbing such as a single pitch with tech 5 climbing capped by a very difficult roof.

[Pantontino]

However unless you want to promote the parochial novelty of a welsh specific system I see no reason why they shouldn't just fit in with the UK/Scottish system.

The last thing I want is a Welsh specific grading system. I believe we should be aiming for parity with modern Scottish grades. Unfortunately many of the grades in the 1988 guide are way out of line with the Scottish system, and people appear to be applying a mix of old and new standards to new routes.

As for Chris Parkin, I know that he accepts the need to shift to a modern grading system (we talked about it on a shared belay on the Ladders last week).


Oh, and good effort typing that extensive grade explanation out. 

[Dave Garry]

I like Pete's Idea

We might be in Beris for the film festival ..should we sort all of this out over beer nuts and thumbwars

 

[Ian Parnell]

Alright Dave, any chance of emailing me a squiggle on a photo as to where Erazerhead goes?  does it follow the E1/2 at all Hebenwi?

[Dave Garry]

Ian

I think Si did one for Peter to put on the wiki ..I will get him to send you a copy.

yes it starts up hebenwi, but where hebenwi moves right (to blenderhead) we went slightly left up to a flared flake

the next pitch took the groove above this (I dont think its been done in summer, maybe wrong though! I often am) until it pushed you out left agin into a steeper broken groove.

good line, but run out, delicate and pumpy.


 

[Ian Parnell]

Good effort, I held Rich Cross's ropes on an attempt on this the day I did Travesty.  Seemed very feisty with poor gear. He had in a "two tap" pecker with what seemed like crux moves to make, after a fair ammount of upping and downing he ran away. So to you guys

[Dave Garry]

Si put a pecker in too just below the buldge ...

where did he get to... and how did he get off? we saw no insitue  gear !

[Ian Parnell]

about feet level with his pecker (Oeer missus!) Basically from the toe of the buttress/approach gully to El Mancho, straight up an obvious groove to ledge/flake (old situ gear to left, then straight up a faint weakness over a bulge poor sling on protruding thing and pecker up left.  Still bulging slightly left to try to gain thin flared flake crack.  It looked like a couple more moves here to an easing of angle, although no obvious gear in sight. Rich down climbed and abbed off old situ gear (slings on peg? maybe in horizontal break).  Any of this ring a bell?  perhaps you were a little right as there was another weakness there.

[Dave Garry]

 that sounds right but hard to tell  ...a little pertruding knobby thing was used with a weighted sling and the pecker went in a little higher on the left ...

didnt see the insitu ..but it could have been covered .. only peg we came across was high on the face..a most welcome sight too



 

[Ian Parnell]

yes that sounds right Rich kept going on about a dodgy pertruding knob and his protection falling off

[benpritch]

and folk still argue over the existence of British 7a. 

who does?

[Johnny Brown]

Up until the last couple of seasons, all of my winter climbing had been done in Wales. I've really bored my partners by announcing at the top of every grade V in scotland 'Hmm. I've done harder IVs in Wales.' In my (mid-grade) experience Welsh grades are harder. This might be just because the Welsh guide is so much older, or that the routes haven't been repeated much, but the scales are a way apart at the mo.

A new guide would be the answer. Say the North Atlantic Oscillation manages to dominate and we get seven or eight more of these winters before the warming kicks back in. Enough time to produce and get a return on a guide? I reckon so. Go on Si, take a punt...

[chummer]

In my (mid-grade) experience Welsh grades are harder. This might be just because the Welsh guide is so much older,/quote]

You're right there Adam, speaking to Parkin they rarely gave above grade V especially for shorter stuff or anything they didn't wear they're rucksacks for! VI was reserved for really hard stuff that it seems we would give VII or even VIII for now.


We definitely don't want a N.Wales specific system, something we all seem to agree on, so this has got to be sorted some how. I'm keen for pub and thumb wars proposal..Interestingly when I did El Mancho with the legend that is The Parkin he thought the move through the roof was 'easy VII' despite my protests that it must be no harder than VI. Another friend thought it was no harder than V, although he is a bit of a beast! No wonder the grades are everywhere. We ain't got a fuckin clue here it seems. Obviously we need to sort out bench marks routes, such as El Mancho and go from there.
Ooh how we look forward to a new supplement or guide....over to you Mr Panton and Baggy..

[chummer]

Dunno what happened there with my post, it's all one big quote????

[petejh]

Dunno what happened there with my post, it's all one big quote????

 

[petejh]

I mostly agree with that list of tech grades Ian but I still don't think there's any move harder than easy 7 or solid 6 on Travesty. When I said 3 or 4 goes for the move round the nose I meant 3 or 4 goes to SEE which hook to use, not to work out the move - which was pretty straightforward if a bit balancey when you're pumped but defo not 8 IMO. I'd grade it VIII 7 (VIII 6/7 if I was being very harsh). Similarly El Mancho VI 6 (contradicting what I thought last winter when I did it), that move pulling into the top crack would be a benchmark 6 move IMO.

Routes with tech 9 moves could have an overall grade from VI through to X with X,9 being loads of 9 moves with ground fall potential and VI,9 one very hard move amongst much easier climbing such as a single pitch with tech 5 climbing capped by a very difficult roof.

X 9 should also be able to mean sutained pumpy 9 but with decent gear a'la E3 5c - doesn't have to mean runout.
Grade grades grades but worth getting a sensible consenus.
I think Chris has changed Cannon Ball to VII 9 on the wiki - sounds ace.