[stone]

Our job as a society is to try and have everyone happily employed doing the jobs that really need doing.

When I hear stuff such as "credible sane policies that recognise difficult economic circumstances" etc, it generally transpires that what that actually boils down to is an acceptance of things being utterly screwed up.

It is just a choice that we leave what is desperately needed undone whilst having vast swathes of people either underemployed or being asset-managers, buy-to-let landlords, hand-car-washers etc. We don't have what we need because of those choices.

[ToxicBilberry]

How has the Tory party moved that range to the right and at the same time created a situation where they’re looking at the potential for a big defeat? Or are Labour now right of where they were when Tony Blair was in power?

Q2: no, they are not.  Q1: I don't believe that they have,  really.  Indeed,  I'm not sure that traditional left and right makes that much sense now.  It's almost inevitable that more money needs to be spent on defence in the next few years; I don't like it,  but it does.  Neither party is being totally honest about how difficult economic choices will be in the next few years,  there isn't going to be badly needed big spending on public services, or lower taxes.  Both parties are desperately trying not to mention Brexit,  which is plainly silly from a policy point of view but convenient politically for both of them.  Management of trade and migration are hugely dependent on our relationship with Europe and it needs addressing. 
I haven't voted Labour for a long time but almost certainly will now, they're closer to having the beginning of a decent environmental/ industrial policy, and have a credible sane shadow chancellor and a shadow health secretary with some positive sounding ideas on the NHS.

Thanks, that makes sense. I voted for Corbyn but won’t be voting at all this time.

Stone, I’m not sure what your ideological vision is? I hear some people talking about being ‘utopians’     but I’m not sure what that utopia looks like.

[Will Hunt]

Stone, it's not as simple as it being a choice not to implement the Utopian Shopping List. All that stuff you want costs a lot of money that the treasury would have to front astronomical sums to implement. What I think Toby means when he says no party is being completely honest is that nobody has really spelled out to the electorate just how crap our finances are (and the age of cheap capital is over).

Not to mention that your Utopian Shopping List is very different to someone else's and politicians have to strike a balance between the electorate's various desires.

[stone]

I thought the 2017 Labour manifesto was excellent.

Funnily enough, perhaps a good overview of what Labour then was about is this report from the rightwing think tank Policy Exchange https://policyexchange.org.uk/publication/mcdonnellomics/

[stone]

What is real is the people we have here and their capabilities, the land we have here, the rest of the world and the real resources people there might exchange with us.

All the rest of it is societal constructs. The powers-that-be evidently are happy to recognise that at times. For covid, bank bailouts, wars etc, we get central bank treasury coordination etc to do whatever it takes.

I don't even think we need much in terms of economic radicalism anyway. Just a willingness to face up to vested interests. Wealth taxes, rent controls, employment reform etc would be enough. Like I said, I'd be delighted with something like the 2017 Labour manifesto.

[Davo]

Hi Stone

I basically agree with you regarding economic policies and I don’t see that we can’t improve things a great deal if the political will is there.

However, my opinion is that I prefer almost any form of Labour govt over the conservative one we have now. I also think that Corbyn was pretty much a disaster for Labour in terms of electability. I liked the majority of his policies but the way he went about leading Labour and presenting himself to the electorate was abysmal. I understand that he appealed to quite a lot of people and got many people very excited about politics for the first time but clearly he was unelectable.

I am not enthused by most of Starmer’s policies but neither am I appalled by them like I am by most of the decisions that the current govt has made over the last 10 years. I just want a change and I want to give Labour a chance to have a go at running the country. They have enough ideas and policies that if implemented will at the very least make things slightly better. There is unlikely to be much economic radicalism initially but possibly there might be in a second term if they win again.

Cheers Dave

[TobyD]

I thought the 2017 Labour manifesto was excellent.

Doesn't that involve big spending and borrowing? When the gilt market and higher interest rate makes that even less of an idea now. Do you really think that Russia will leave Europe alone if we leave them alone?
Apart from anything else, in 2017 nowhere near enough people voted labour to make it a realistic plan for government.

Haven't we recently had a prime minister who tried some economic radicalism and ideas from a think tank? Surely Corbyn ideas would have gone exactly the same way.

[ali k]

All that stuff you want costs a lot of money that the treasury would have to front astronomical sums to implement.

Or private individuals.

Stone - one of the items on your Utopian Shopping List is ‘Passivhaus standards for new buildings’. By when? Legislation passed in the first 100 days? By the end of the Parliament? I assume this covers houses too? Do we currently have the knowledge/skills to implement this across the industry nationwide? What would this do to house prices/renting costs (which are already unaffordable for many)? Or would general taxation subsidise this for private buyers/renters?

Don’t get me wrong, building standards in the UK have been very poor, particularly houses. And the UK is way behind the curve with energy efficiency. But the industry is moving in the right direction.

I’ve picked up on one item on your list that I know something about. If Labour put that in their manifesto to update Building Regs to Passivhaus standards even by 2030 I’d piss myself knowing how unrealistic it was and would have to conclude the rest of the manifesto is equally pie in the sky. Which is what happened when Corbyn was in charge.

I’m sure the other items on your list could be equally dismantled or picked apart on further interrogation by someone with the knowledge and/or inclination (e.g. the right wing press). So Labour would get nowhere near Downing Street. That’s the most important first step to getting anything done.

[Will Hunt]

You're not doing it right, Ali. You have to close your eyes tight, ball your fists, and believe. All we need is the political will to leave our reality and we shall ascend to the sunlit uplands.

[stone]

ali k, I'm keen to hear more about building regs from you as you say you know about it.

My impression was that in 2010 there were plans in place towards transitioning to very high energy conservation standards but those were scrapped. In France don't they have such a plan still ongoing (happy to be corrected)?

My impression is that even the small amount of Passivhaus social housing building that has happened has led to dramatic cost reductions due to 'learning-by-doing" such that now costs are comparable to standard builds https://www.passivhaustrust.org.uk/competitions_and_campaigns/passivhaus-for-local-authorities/

I'm put in mind of how at the start of the covid pandemic, we got told that there was no way covid PCR tests could be done on a large scale. I saw first hand how totally inexperienced people could be rapidly trained up to the point where they could train up others to do tens of thousands of covid PCRs a day.

Let's remember that at the start of WWII, the USA not only didn't have many battleships, they didn't have the ship yards, or the trained staff or anything. They taught and built and got all of that done in a couple of years.

[Oldmanmatt]

All that stuff you want costs a lot of money that the treasury would have to front astronomical sums to implement.

Or private individuals.

An overrated source of funds. In comparison to the wealth of even a moderately sized developed nation, even the most fabulous Billionaire pales. There is some realistic comparison where the individual, personal wealth blurs into the nations wealth (most Middle Eastern Monarchies, Putin’s Russia etc), but they’re unlikely to help  UK development much…

[andy popp]

All that stuff you want costs a lot of money that the treasury would have to front astronomical sums to implement.

Or private individuals.

An overrated source of funds. In comparison to the wealth of even a moderately sized developed nation, even the most fabulous Billionaire pales. There is some realistic comparison where the individual, personal wealth blurs into the nations wealth (most Middle Eastern Monarchies, Putin’s Russia etc), but they’re unlikely to help  UK development much…

I assumed Ali meant general taxation?

[stone]

For a government/central-bank the monetary system is a mechanism for administering the real resources (ie population) they have jurisdiction over. Nothing more, nothing less. So please let's have less mysticism about this.

[Fultonius]

All that stuff you want costs a lot of money that the treasury would have to front astronomical sums to implement.

Or private individuals.

Stone - one of the items on your Utopian Shopping List is ‘Passivhaus standards for new buildings’. By when? Legislation passed in the first 100 days? By the end of the Parliament? I assume this covers houses too? Do we currently have the knowledge/skills to implement this across the industry nationwide? What would this do to house prices/renting costs (which are already unaffordable for many)? Or would general taxation subsidise this for private buyers/renters?

Don’t get me wrong, building standards in the UK have been very poor, particularly houses. And the UK is way behind the curve with energy efficiency. But the industry is moving in the right direction.

I’ve picked up on one item on your list that I know something about. If Labour put that in their manifesto to update Building Regs to Passivhaus standards even by 2030 I’d piss myself knowing how unrealistic it was and would have to conclude the rest of the manifesto is equally pie in the sky. Which is what happened when Corbyn was in charge.

I’m sure the other items on your list could be equally dismantled or picked apart on further interrogation by someone with the knowledge and/or inclination (e.g. the right wing press). So Labour would get nowhere near Downing Street. That’s the most important first step to getting anything done.

I'm guessing this news hasn't filtered south of the border? Scotland adopts passivhaus regs, starting 2025.

[andy popp]

You're not doing it right, Ali. You have to close your eyes tight, ball your fists, and believe. All we need is the political will to leave our reality and we shall ascend to the sunlit uplands.

I'm not getting at you Will (well, maybe a tiny bit) but my overriding impression of this thread so far is one of just how low people's expectations have sunk at this point, to a level of almost total resignation.

Apart from Stone, not having a Tory government is about all anyone seems to dare hope for. I get it; the last fourteen year have been exhausting, lurching from dangerous (Cameron/Osborne & austerity/Brexit) through utterly dysfunctional (Johnson & Truss) to completely hapless and inept (Sunak). There can be very few Tories who genuinely think recent years have exemplified good governance. They haven't governed well, even on their terms, let alone those of anyone else (or on the terms of mainstream C20th Toryism, including Thatcher). People rightly want them gone. But beyond that ... ? I also understand that Labour are caught in headlights of a very rightwing media and first past the post.

Political will is absolutely necessary, not to escape reality but to begin to change it. Even pragmatic politics begin in some willpower.

(I acknowledge that I am now effectively an outsider and don't have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to having the will to change things, having basically fucked off).