[burned]

heheh hairich, well constructed post!, I am sure we are all impressed by your contribution! 

hmm, I have to admit, that its a bit disturbing the lane should be so busy both days this weekend, and blocking the lane so that other users had to leave the trail and wander off onto the moor among the bushes is obviously not showing any sort of forethought for others and only contributes to the lane becoming wider.

I honestly didnt think it was this bad, but two posts in as many days leads me to think otherwise though : ( - I am kinna stuck as to what I should think now, on one hand I dont want us to loose the trail, but on the other I realize how crappy the situation is for everyone except the guy sitting there with his heaters on full blast. I am sure all the other riders in here will remember a similar situation when all the walkers were all over us for trail blazing and building our own stuff off trail, there is just this overwhelming sense of irresponsibility conflicting with selfishness, and it doesn't feel good. Whats even worse in a way is that it seems there are people out there driving that are just numb to any of that and as a result we are all suffering at present and the future recourse as well : (

sloper, you work in legal council right? what would be the best way to work towards pushing this through, as I can imagine that trying to push something on a "voluntary" basis isnt going to be popular among the rednecks among us.

I can only think that we should all lobby for times of the month/year where there should be a ban as suggested by you guys earlier.

[fatdoc]

respect for listening. If you can inform the majority of the user group then you can perhaps be in a situation where the 4 by 4 users keep some access... it would seem this form of outdoor activity is under great pressure from all other user groups.. the 4 by 4 user group have laid great faith in their over representation for the peak user group survey from that undertaken some 18 months ago (where they utilised their numbers to swamo the response). I feel complacency and instances of abuse have changed the cultural and political perspective rather rapidly.

In summery I agree with your last post, either embrace a legal enforcement, and get some access, or totally lose the hill for your pleasure.

again, brave post..

[Sloper]

Hard day with the knife?  It looks as you've developed slopersyndrome v a v the typing.

Burned, I presume you mean lose, counsel etc but if you repost in English my confusion will be resolved.

Personally I'm doing everything that I can to get all 4x4 banned from all BOAT other than for access etc in all national parks, AONB etc; not that I have any chance of this; it must be a pure co-incidence that the day the report of the contracting out of SAR helicopter services I posted on here, engaged the machine and the Tories released a press release setting out their opposition until greater consideration had been given to the scheme etc.

ooooohhhhh look at my access beetches

[burned]

Sloper - wow.. the spelling was rather shocking, I didnt read over it before posting, you were totally on the mark though.

I wouldn't be too disheartened, I feel that I have as much of a shot changing things as you probably feel that you do right now, almost like showing up in haiti with a dustpan and brush... at the end of the day if it is lost, it kind of feels like we brought it on ourselves, and that is at least some consolation for me personally, had it been taken away for no reason it would have felt a bit crap.

I mailed some other drivers to see what they thought, and because of the hostile (although I know it was only sarcasm and jabbing an elbow) posts made in here to the 4x4 guys, they all just flamed me. Maybe I should bail on my roadtrip through mongolia early and hope its sorted when I get back haha (no LOL there : )

[Johnny Brown]

Burned, its good to know some of you are listening at least. For the record, I haven't got any problem with green-laning in principle, my beef is purely derived from bitter experience. I'm sure there are lanes more suitable than the ones I frequent, but on the ones I do there are problems. Perhaps its a difference in frequency of use? I'm up at Stanage most weeks, whereas I guess the average 4x4er would only cross the Causeway 2 or 3 times a year? Then on to the next site, not realising half an hour behind is another convoy, and another... we see them all.

Just to clear up, yesterday's experience was in Porter Clough, which is not up on the moors, it's in a valley leading down to Sheffield just outside the National Park. In principle its a far better site for the activity - not on a SSSI, not in an NP, not clearly visible amidst one of the UK's most iconic vistas. But the selfish behaviour of the driver's concerned still had a negative impact on other users. If folk feela need to go out in convoys of nine vehicles I think they should be sticking to pay-and-play sites, not narrow lanes popular with other users.

[Joepicalli]

I'm really pleased to see the debate on here is finally shaping up to a "what can WE do" rather than a "Who shall we blame one". Well done Burned for carrying on Jim's reasoned, pro-greenlaning stance.
Do we have a revised date for the Houndskirk meeting, with a rep from one of the 4x4 groups? If so post here or PM me I would like to go if I can. 

[john horscroft]

Hi Joe,  had a message from Jim yesterday.  His little 'un is on the mend thankfully and he's aiming to reschedule shortly.  So, Joe, riding or driving??????

[Joepicalli]

Depends on when and weather. But keep in touch and decide later.

[jfw]

Limiting access seems a good compromise - i.e. drier times of year (whenever they are!), or just only opening up to motor vehicles some weekends. Could we just have a lockable gate with a side gate for pedestrian/ mtb access - and people apply for the key? Or it only gets opened every so often?

Not thought this through - more thinking out loud.

[Norton Sharley]

Well done John and Joe for your liberal viewpoints, unfortunately I spend my working week being overly political so really can't be arsed with taking the same stance here.

4x4's have made a right mess of the top of Houndkirk.  4x4 users can't be trusted to park in a line 6 long along a public by-way leaving sufficient room for the public to pass, as witnessed by Johnny Brown.  4x4 users seem to think that holding a selective meeting with the people they wish to meet with is an objective approach, witness Jim Franklin's inability to answer my PM's even before I started getting stroppy with him.

I'm sorry folks but this has been going on for years.  The 4x4 users have demonstrated a total lack of interest in the issues or ability to police themselves and a bit of sweet talking on here by one or two no doubt eminently sensible members of their community does nothing to convince me of the ability of the rest of the 4x4 community to even consider other user groups' opinions let alone take account of them.

If anyone needs some photos of yesterday's debacle by the "yorks-lincs4x4response.org" in Porter Clough, then PM me and I'll post them. 

[slackline]

witness Jim Franklin's inability to answer my PM's even before I started getting stroppy with him.

I'm not taking any sides, but many people assume that a sent message, whether its via email or through the messaging board hear means that its been received and read, which simply is not the case.  Sometimes emails don't reach the intended recipient and get lost in the ether.  Some people may not even be aware of how to read their personal messages here (and may have had the email that was sent to them automatically filtered into trash).  I think there are just too many unknown variables to account for before assuming that you're being ignored.

If anyone needs some photos of yesterday's debacle by the "yorks-lincs4x4response.org" in Porter Clough, then PM me and I'll post them.

HowTo Embed Pictures to UKBouldering (if you can be bothered).

[burned]

awesome feedback, get the photos up here for us all to have a look at. Once the evidence is there, it cannot be denied by any of the guilty parties, and I am interested to see who they are!.

Great news that jims little one is on the mend, pneumonia doesnt joke around with the kids.

Hope you all had a sweet weekend, two more weeks and I leave for my adventure!. Work has never been less appealing than it is now haha.

[john horscroft]

Been over Houndkirk today - the summit is a fucking disgrace.  Looks as though it's been the playground of choice this weekend.  Ground conditions are exactly what you'd expect, filthy, so the damage is pretty extreme.  Time for the 4x4 fraternity to put their house in order.  No more excuses - they should be patroling the summit and 're-educating' those who obviously can't read the signs or just don't care how much mess they make.   

[Norton Sharley]

I too have been over this weekend and notice that there are now four sets of tracks dropping off the Moor, not the two there was until recently.  I have no evidence of the increase from 2 to 4 except for my appaling memory, but it's getting worse and, as you say John, there were 'fresh' tracks up there.

They're a bunch of useless cunts as far as I'm concerned.  I may have expressed that point previously but can't remember.

Anyway, as promised, here's some pics of some useless cunts unable to get up the perfectly legal bit of Jacob's Ladder in Mayfield Valley.  Knobheads.

[nomorespam2009@live.co.uk]

For what its worth I reported two vehicles on that weekend for driving off piste on Houndkirk. Both were white and black Defender 90s and the drivers were not bothered about things like legality and were not part of any organised enthusiast group (I tried talking to them first).

[john horscroft]

Good effort. How did you report them?  Did you go direct to Tim Cross?  Last time I spoke to him he was seriously talking about impounding vehicles, so he's the man to talk to - tim.cross@southyorks.pnn.police.uk

[Norton Sharley]

Did you take photos?  Can you post them up?