[csurfleet]

Sorry if this has been done before (I had a look but couldn't spot anything)

I've just finished a P-E phase and had an easy week and I figured I'd be looking at 4 weeks of ARC style stuff. I've been working my way though various stuff online about stamina training and there seems to be some disagreement about how to schedule it:

1) That it should have its own cycle coming before a strength phase.
2) That it should be done all the time alongside the other phases.

As I see it 1 is based on traditional sports where you are generally training for either power or endurance - with proven results in many sports, and 2 is based on the idea that climbing is a power-endurance sport and that spending too much time on the stamina side alone will cause too much breakdown of the muscle/tendon/etc strength for the benefits it provides.

What are you guys views on it?

[Sash.C]

This guy makes some good points...

http://www.rockclimbing.com/Articles/Training_and_Technique/The_Making_of_a_Rockprodigy__258.html

Whether you agree or not is up to you. I think if you're injury prone like I am, then an ARC phase on it's own is a very good idea. If not, and you don't want to loose too much gain you made from other phases, then miss it out and scedule ARCing as your warm up or warm down alongside your hypertrophy/recruitment/endurance phases. I guess everyone has their own opinion, but have a read... it's an interesting article.

[jwi]

Climbing ability is not very dependant on endurance, it is however dependant on power endurance if your goals are routes or boulders take more than 30 s to complete.

I don't do pure ACR-phases any more, and to be honest, apart from climbing long routes in the mountains I don't think I will ever do them again.  During an power-endurance phase I do as much anaerobe and aerobe power endurance as I can stand, and only do low-volume work to up the hours if I feel I cannot put in as many hours as I need towards p-e training.

Recent thinking in endurance sports is that low-intensity/high-volume work is not productive for fit athletes.

While significant improvements in endurance performance
and corresponding physiological markers are evident following submaximal endurancetraining in sedentary and recreationally active groups, an additional in-
crease in submaximal training (i.e.volume) in highly trained individuals does not
appear to further enhance either endurance performance or associated physiolog-
ical variables [e.g. peak oxygen uptake (V. O2), oxidative enzymeactivity].
(Sports Med 2002; 32 (1): 53-73)

I share office with a former national level biathlon competitor.  And he says that current thinking is that if you can train once a week you must do intervalls, if you train twice a week do intervalls, if you train three times a week do intervalls if you are fit enough or do sub-maximal training if you are not, and so forth.

[Serpico]

1) That it should have its own cycle coming before a strength phase.
2) That it should be done all the time alongside the other phases.

As I see it 1 is based on traditional sports where you are generally training for either power or endurance - with proven results in many sports, and 2 is based on the idea that climbing is a power-endurance sport and that spending too much time on the stamina side alone will cause too much breakdown of the muscle/tendon/etc strength for the benefits it provides.

ARCing (or lactic acid training) won't cause any muscle/tendon breakdown, neither will concurrent strength and endurance training cause any loss of strength.
As for phases, I'd either use it as a recovery phase or just do it all the time - both are valid approaches.

[Rocksteady]

I'm interested in how to fit ARCing into a mixed training schedule (I don't think I'd do an ARC phase).

Could you fit ARCing in the same session as strength training - i.e. after max difficulty bouldering or fingerboard? Or would this be counter-productive?

When I lifted weights I was shy of doing cardio in the same session after heavy lifts because I was worried that the demands on the body were so different I wouldn't see great strength responses.

If one was to do anaerobic training like intervals could you do this in the same session as ARCing - and would it be best to do it before or after? ARC as warm-up for anaerobic training or as a warm-down?

Or do I need to dedicate a training session to ARCing alone?

Thanks.

[Serpico]

Climbing ability is not very dependant on endurance, it is however dependant on power endurance if your goals are routes or boulders take more than 30 s to complete.

Climbing is massively dependant on endurance aerobic and anaerobic, the exact mix depends on what sort of climbing you're talking about; a 2min redpoint on The Catwalk will be mostly anaerobic, a long Trad onsight taking anything up to an hour will be mostly aerobic.

Recent thinking in endurance sports is that low-intensity/high-volume work is not productive for fit athletes.

Quote from: Paul B. Laursen and David G. Jenkins

    While significant improvements in endurance performance
    and corresponding physiological markers are evident following submaximal endurancetraining in sedentary and recreationally active groups, an additional in-
    crease in submaximal training (i.e.volume) in highly trained individuals does not
    appear to further enhance either endurance performance or associated physiolog-
    ical variables [e.g. peak oxygen uptake (V. O2), oxidative enzymeactivity].
    (Sports Med 2002; 32 (1): 53-73)

You can't apply research from other endurance sports to climbing - the profile is too different: fatigue in climbing is determined by peripheral factors whilst other in other sports it's predominantly central factors that determine success.

Here's a quote from Per-Olof Astrand from The IOC Encyclopaedia of Sports Medicine: Endurance Training In Sport

One of the reasons for the dominance of aerobic training is probably that swimming is very much an 'arm and upper body sport'. All leg-dependant athletes on land have special training for the lower extremities plus the daily stimulation of walking and standing. A swimmer while not actually swimming recieves virtually no training of the upper body, and especially not of the 'proper' arm muscles. Perhaps this is one of the reasons for the distance and time the swimmer has to undertake to be successful, regardless of  short  or long distance performance. Compared with a runner, a swimmer could reduce the workout time if he could swim to and from school,work or training session.

Obviously that was written in relation to swimming but it's even more pertinent when you consider the even smaller muscle mass of the forearms and the high movement and skill element of climbing.

[csurfleet]

ARCing (or lactic acid training) won't cause any muscle/tendon breakdown, neither will concurrent strength and endurance training cause any loss of strength.

Probably worded wrong on my part, my concern was that if you were on (for example) a routine like this:
- 3 weeks ARC
- 3 weeks strength
- 2 weeks power
- 3 weeks power endurance
- 2 weeks peak
- 1 week rest

That the 11 weeks between strength phases would cause you to start from a much lower base than if there was only 8 weeks. I know if I don't lift weights for 11 weeks I come back much weaker!

What I'm trying to get out of the ARC training is a better shake-out ability. I find that on trad routes that it is often not the climbing but the hanging around placing gear that gets me pumped out, if I could turn those moments from a drain to a rest though...

I think I'm going to start doing a couple of dedicated 40min ARC workouts a week, and doing some during rest phases, can be done easily on lunchtimes between normal climbing days.

Thanks!

[Serpico]

Could you fit ARCing in the same session as strength training - i.e. after max difficulty bouldering or fingerboard? Or would this be counter-productive?

When I lifted weights I was shy of doing cardio in the same session after heavy lifts because I was worried that the demands on the body were so different I wouldn't see great strength responses.

Light ARCing is ideal after bouldering (or before as a warm up). Only intense, high volume endurance training has been shown to be detrimental to maximum strength gains.

If one was to do anaerobic training like intervals could you do this in the same session as ARCing - and would it be best to do it before or after? ARC as warm-up for anaerobic training or as a warm-down?

Same as above - makes an ideal warm up/down.

[Serpico]

Probably worded wrong on my part, my concern was that if you were on (for example) a routine like this:
- 3 weeks ARC
- 3 weeks strength
- 2 weeks power
- 3 weeks power endurance
- 2 weeks peak
- 1 week rest

That the 11 weeks between strength phases would cause you to start from a much lower base than if there was only 8 weeks. I know if I don't lift weights for 11 weeks I come back much weaker!

First off I think your phase lengths are too short, particularly as there's no delineation in the strength phase between hypertrophy and recruitment before you move on to power. 3wks of strength training (no matter what aspect of strength you train for) will mainly just elicit neural gains, which come quick and go quick.
Secondly I think that you can't periodise without a maintenance phase, so although you may be in your arc phase you wouldn't let more than 10 days elapse without a max strength day, a PE day etc. So you have to be training several days a week to be able to fit it all in.
Have a look at 'Non Linear Periodization' for an alternative for 'in season' periodization training.
http://books.google.com/books?id=c_r98FaHllwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=non+linear+periodization&cd=2#v=onepage&q=&f=false

[Rocksteady]

This is brilliant info Serpico - thanks for sharing your knowledge.

 

[csurfleet]

Is recruitment not covered by the power phase then? I saw 'strength' as the hypertrophy bit (fingerboarding/20 move problems), with maximal (5-10 move problems) and campus stuff under power, am I missing something?

Sash - that article was really interesting, thanks

[abarro81]

First off I think your phase lengths are too short, particularly as there's no delineation in the strength phase between hypertrophy and recruitment before you move on to power. 3wks of strength training (no matter what aspect of strength you train for) will mainly just elicit neural gains, which come quick and go quick.

What length would your phases be? Had a talk with Randall the other week and he was talking about  a 3 month phase focused on aerobic capacity (which seems to be a bit like hard capilliarising), anaerobic capacity (15 move problems, 2 min rests) and max deadhangs; then into some PE and taper for your project/trip/comp.


(Sorry if I'm  misrepresenting your training knowledge Tom!)

[Probes]

This is brilliant info Serpico - thanks for sharing your knowledge.

 

I second that. Serp's i am surprised (no offence implied at all mate) by how much knowledge you have of the dark side.
Can you explain, why? with regards stamina (20-25mins +) training why i appear to perform better on the fourth/fifth day on, even though i feel more tired?

[i.munro]

Can you explain, why? with regards stamina (20-25mins +) training why i appear to perform better on the fourth/fifth day on, even though i feel more tired?

can't match the man's knowledge but could you be too knackered to tense up & overgrip?

[account_inactive]

First off I think your phase lengths are too short, particularly as there's no delineation in the strength phase between hypertrophy and recruitment before you move on to power. 3wks of strength training (no matter what aspect of strength you train for) will mainly just elicit neural gains, which come quick and go quick.

What length would your phases be? Had a talk with Randall the other week and he was talking about  a 3 month phase focused on aerobic capacity (which seems to be a bit like hard capilliarising), anaerobic capacity (15 move problems, 2 min rests) and max deadhangs; then into some PE and taper for your project/trip/comp.


(Sorry if I'm  misrepresenting your training knowledge Tom!)

3 months is a long time for ARC work IMHO.  ARCing is ARCing, if you work harder you move over the limit into other energy systems.

If that is his training routine he's managed to miss out a power phase (probably why he's so weak  ).  All of this depends on your end goals at the end of the day and I suppose this is not as important to his.

I've found that while training people strict rigid cycles don't work as well as shorter cycles with a more loose approach.  I usually set starting phases and then pre-comp/peaking phases, but allow everything else to be changed depending on short term/medium term goals.  This does however mean that you still stick with correct phases per day/week e.g not doing a power session 3 days on, but allowing extra sessions and extended days on depending on how you feel.  I find this helps motivation (as you can have short term goals and also helps you to understand how you body works and feels when training.

I hope this is of some help (although probably not), but feel free to ask me to expand as I've just got back from work and most of it probably doesn't make sense

EDIT: Just re-read what I've written and although I can't be arsed to change it I will qualify that the looser periods still have an end goal and also include large volumes of work to increase overall fitness...........

[Serpico]

Is recruitment not covered by the power phase then? I saw 'strength' as the hypertrophy bit (fingerboarding/20 move problems), with maximal (5-10 move problems) and campus stuff under power, am I missing something?

Pedantically speaking (max strength) recruitment and power are different neural adaptations; a power phase would typically follow a max recruitment phase.
Power is force x distance x speed, so the explosive pull up at the start of a campus move is power. It's best trained explosively at around 60% of your maximum strength.
Campus boarding is a bit of a mixed bag in that it has elements of power, rate of force development, and maximum recruitment. Also for the same exercise a weaker climber may be training different elements than a stronger climber (ie: if the pull up part is at more than 60% of their maximum it may be done too slow to count as a power exercise, or a very strong climber may do it too slowly because they can static the move).

[csurfleet]

That makes sense. Thanks for all the help!

[Serpico]

First off I think your phase lengths are too short, particularly as there's no delineation in the strength phase between hypertrophy and recruitment before you move on to power. 3wks of strength training (no matter what aspect of strength you train for) will mainly just elicit neural gains, which come quick and go quick.

What length would your phases be? Had a talk with Randall the other week and he was talking about  a 3 month phase focused on aerobic capacity (which seems to be a bit like hard capilliarising), anaerobic capacity (15 move problems, 2 min rests) and max deadhangs; then into some PE and taper for your project/trip/comp.


(Sorry if I'm  misrepresenting your training knowledge Tom!)

3 months is a long time for ARC work IMHO.  ARCing is ARCing, if you work harder you move over the limit into other energy systems.

This needs some clarification from Abs, I read it as the 3 months including all the elements he mentioned.
As for my phase lengths I don't follow one all encompassing linear periodization plan; I boulder during the winter and do routes during the rest of the year. I try to maintain fitness while bouldering by doing a routes session once in any 10 day period, and then the same for bouldering during routes season with an extra emphasis on bouldering every few weeks. During these 'phases' I'll periodize my conditioning so for weights, pull ups, finger board,etc I'll do 6wks hypertrophy followed by 3wks max strength (I tend to neglect power). Recently for conditioning I've started following a non-linear periodization plan where I'll alternate a light session with a hypertrophy session and a max strength session. These conditioning phases cycle continuously irrespective of whether I'm routing or bouldering.
The problem with long linear periodization programs is that they're geared towards creating a peak, which is ideal if you want to prepare for a comp or a holiday and don't care how you climb the rest of the time, but the higher the peak, the deeper the valley, so for someone climbing all year round they're not the best choice IMO.

[abarro81]

Yup, the 3 months was aerobic capacity, anaerobic capacity and max hangs all at once (so to speak). Tom would be the best person to clarify anything since I've only recently talked to him about this.. Presumably the anaerobic capacity is like base training for strength/power. The aerobic capacity isn't really ARCing, in that it seems to be higher intensity than you'd normally ARC at - just near the top of the aerobic band for the relevant muscles (equivalent to something like tempo runs in running??), like getting a bit pumped but always 'in control' for longer periods.. So you might do it on jugs on a 30-40 degree wall instead of jugs on a 10 degree wall or something. Anyway, I've started trying this and it's interesting - you can do an enormous volume and it means that whilst I end sessions knackered I seem to recover from them disproportionately fast. I'm liking it so far, will have to see how it continues.

[Rocksteady]

The problem with long linear periodization programs is that they're geared towards creating a peak, which is ideal if you want to prepare for a comp or a holiday and don't care how you climb the rest of the time, but the higher the peak, the deeper the valley, so for someone climbing all year round they're not the best choice IMO.
[/quote]

Remember reading something like this in the Self-Coached Climber and couldn't agree more.
I want year round performance with consistent slight improvements. Sucking up poor performances for the large part of the year to peak for a trip seems too risky given likelihood of weather/injury putting the boshank on you.
Having said that, if I was a comp climber I think I'd follow the Paxti system which appears to be to lock yourself in a cellar and diet and train until you come out a skeleton with beast climbing power.

[Tommy]

Hi Alex,

Sorry it's taken me a while to reply - just seen this thread after Reeve alluded to it.

1. re: periodization programmes that work towards a peak, but then create troughs, yes totally agree. However, if you are a comp climber or someone who seriously wants to climb to their absolute potential limit in a given year, then this is the way forward in my opinion. It's a sacrafice (a big one) but possibly worth it.

I actually quite happily take 5 months of mediocre performance for 1 killer month. Hurts the ego, but nice when it all pans out in the end.

For periodisation I think it's best to just work backwards from the timescales that it takes for physiological adaptation.

Power endurance (i.e. comp/redpoint route specific) 6-8 weeks
Anaerobic capacity approx 18 weeks
Aerobic capacity (endurance) 6-10 weeks.
Strength work if you want to have a lasting gain takes around 2-3 months (with a 3:1 work:rest ratio) in my experience.

Just work on the general plan of high vol, lower intensity toward lower vol and higher intensity (with regards to number of actual moves done).

Anaerobic capacity training is increasing the rate at which you can produce lactate.

In essence I have found it most important to work a long and hard phase in the pre season on strength and conditioning (back, shoulders, fingers and core) with lots of aerobic capacity work. This is then slowly filtered towards their end goal of comp season.

All of the training plans which go 1 wk this, 2 weeks this, 3 weeks that, 2 weeks that etc etc and hope to have some brilliant results in 6-8 weeks are bollocks in my opinion. You can get some small gains out of the them, but most people are far better off following long term steady programme. Small gains, consistently over a long period are very your best option.

I mostly base this on the experiences I've had over the years with the senior and junior british teams and hope that the shear number of people who on average respond in a certain way to types of training are a good indication! It's all mostly a suck it and see approach though as no one's sure of perfect results. I'm out in France in April to train with the French junior team, so hopefully I may get to find out some even more interesting bits and pieces and also to see how it's put into practice.

See ya soon Alex for some stamina training ;-)

Tom