[SA Chris]

obviously there's no need to reply to this if you're slackers or SA chris.

Bugger. I was going to say it may not be a key factor for me, but might be a minor influencer, if it was a toss up between two similar products. I'm human after all, not some hemp eating tree hugger

On the surface I might appear deep, but inside I'm shallow to the bone (to paraphrase / misquote)

[Fultonius]

Interesting stuff this - most of the companies whose product ranges I like: Mammut, Deuter, Patagonia seem to come out reasonably high up the list. I like these companies because they tweak the existing products a little bit most years, but don;t pump out piles of "new" but poorly tested products.

I have never bought a single thing from TNF. Not because their products don't look ok, and not because they are ethically dubious, just because someone else always seems to have something more suited, cheaper, better. I do sometimes go into the TNF shop and have a look around, but I've never been tempted to buy anything. The fact they score poorly probably just reinforces the fact that I'm not their target market...

[mrjonathanr]

Presumably this was partially because you didn't have this available knowledge beforehand? Now that you do, do you think, do you think it will influence your buying decisions? Maybe not a key influence, but at least a factor?

Good point, it'd be a factor for me now.

I'm surprised some people haven't heard of Deuter.

Me too.  Their Kid comfort 3 as a baby carrier is in a league of its own.  Just brilliant.

[tomtom]

The concept of an 'ethical' business is a paradox. Businesses make money by exploiting someone else - whether it be customers, workers, tax laws etc... or all of the former to varying degrees. Most of which is to me un-ethical in some way or other...

So its basically shades of grey between 'Satan' (Primarki) and 'Ethical-ish/a bit more responsible' (Patagucci)



Onwards to the barricades comrades! I'll see you there but I've just got to pick up some bits from Tesco on the way...

[Sloper]

I was just about to mention Tesco and ethical double standards and you've stolen my thunder / punter points.  Ps are you up for a beer in Manchester soon comrade?

[Jaspersharpe]

The concept of an 'ethical' business is a paradox. Businesses make money by exploiting someone else - whether it be customers, workers, tax laws etc... or all of the former to varying degrees.

Big businesses yes but I think it's unfair to tar every business with the same brush.

*drinks beer purchased from Tesco*

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[tomtom]

I was just about to mention Tesco and ethical double standards and you've stolen my thunder / punter points.  Ps are you up for a beer in Manchester soon comrade?

Yes why not - though not until next week at the earliest.. (work/easter/socialist worker banners to make blah blah)

[nic mullin]

Presumably this was partially because you didn't have this available knowledge beforehand? Now that you do, do you think, do you think it will influence your buying decisions? Maybe not a key influence, but at least a factor?

Yes, I think it will. It's a bit of an embarrassing blind spot really, just something I hadn't considered. Given that I tend to research my purchases and buy good quality stuff that lasts, the extra price in terms of cost-per-wear isn't much, and there isn't much excuse for not buying ethically made stuff.

[Danny]

would it? what kind of things would a company have to write to influence you? then would they have to tell you how this compares to the other brands ethics for the same product type?

i bought some prana hemp trousers, not because i read the endless blurb pr bullshit which i don't believe for one minute, because i liked the feel of them running through my fingers. i don't think if you see a nice TNF jacket you'll stop to think how it was made. i think you'll think thats cheap or on sale, or thats nicer or more apt, than jacket x in the same price range so i'll shell out on that. obviously there's no need to reply to this if you're slackers or SA chris. I'm talking clothing here not hardware

Its not so much a question of how self proclaimed standards would influence me, but what extraneous standards (either extant, or ones that ought to be created) a company could demonstrably meet. Thinking of Prana, since you mention them: their whole image reeks of minimal impact hippydom, right down to the bits of fuzzy string that connect the price tags to the garments, which are no doubt 100 % organic monkey pubes.

This kind of thing, I hope, does little to influence my choice. But third party websites, like the one linked here, and standards like fairtrade can and do influence my buying. Of course you can pick holes in both til the cows come home. I'm aware that fairtrade in particular has incurred some strident wrath from its critics.

My view is that to consume products (however minimally and thoughtfully) in this part of the world has the almost inevitable consequence of fucking with other people and the other places they live in...but that's no reason to not at least begin to try to move things in a better direction.       

[cuboard]

To be honest I was coming from a slightly different perspective. I know a lot of people in the climbing world some of which now operate outdoor clothing/equipment companies. So if you take the moral high ground in the past is it now ok to rinse cheap labour in china to boost your own profits ?

I wonder if these people will defend themselves...... But of course that would mean admitting the above

[Jaspersharpe]

Name and shame em Coishy! Ha ha.

[cuboard]

How ya doing jaz... Foot mended?

Trying to ruin someone's reputation/integrity based on how they choose to earn a living is not my cup of tea, however .......I'll just wait for an apology and leave it at that

[a dense loner]

Stop complaining and have an expensive jap whisky for me you big bastard!

[cuboard]

Yamasaki coming up.....

[slackline]

When I worked in a well reputed outdoor shop I always thought it was bollocks that patagonia marketed themselves as being super green and friendly. Every year they'd massivley over produce their products for that season and end up with a huge clearance list (hence you used to see alot of patagonia sales kicking about).

I'm not sure if they are any better now but they certainly weren't the best. I think any green claims they made were probably offset by the the amount of flyers they had printed telling everyone how green they were.

Surely putting yourself out as an "efficaly sound" or "green" company is just another part of the marketing arsenal.  It appeals to people with expendable incomes with money to spend on what it is you're trying to sell.  That is after all how marketing works, as advertisers put a dollar value on everything....

[Sloper]

I wonder how many climbing walls, shops selling climbing kit & etc pay their staff a living wage?  I'd be more willing all things being equal to pay more for a service if the staff were on a decent wage.

[nic mullin]

I don't know how much it has changed, but the climbing wall I used to work at (in the year 2000/2001) paid everybody less than minimum wage if they did not hold a relevant qualification (SPA at the time), and the difference was supposedly spent on training them up and paying for their assessments. I can't think of anybody who worked there who got close to the value of the amount they were underpaid in training or qualifications.

On a related topic, I've just spotted that Wild Country are offering an opportunity to intern with them for £500 a month, which works out at just over £2.70 an hour - less than half of the current minimum wage for over 21s, and less than a third of the current living wage. While I'm sure this is legal, I think it's pretty shonky. It's worth flagging up to anybody thinking of applying that this is a much worse deal than many other internships currently available in design and engineering.

[Jaspersharpe]

That does sound like a poor show although slightly better than the numerous internships you read about which pay nothing.

[Will Hunt]

  I'm afraid.

I recently bought a new pair of "about town" shoes as the old ones were basically falling off my feet. Thinking with my ethical head I decided to try and find a pair of shoes that a) looked decent, b) had been made ethically (don't care about abroad, as Matt says, let them have a slice of the pie), c) weren't knitted out of yoghurt or anything overbearingly hippyish (bespoke clogs don't look good on me).

I failed miserably. There was supposed to be one shop in Leeds that sold reasonable looking stuff and it had shut down. People clamour to say that market forces will sort all this out and that if the demand was there then it would be met. I'm not overly convinced. I think there are plenty of people on the high street who are concerned about standards in clothing factories abroad but have no place to make appropriate purchases without going to a a basement in the back of beyond that smells of incense and soya.


EDIT: Just realised that I've nullified my own argument by stating that the shop in Leeds had closed down, ergo no viable market. In actual fact I think they'd moved premises to some other town as opposed to shutting up shop entirely.

[Johnny Brown]

Hebden bridge, perchance?

There was a place in Crookes by Ali's news that sold/sells handmade shoes. They look like correction shoes.

[Sloper]

Churches / Cheaney for shoes.

[Stubbs]

The Third Estate was the Leeds store, it moved to Camden. I think Fred Perry trainers are still made in the UK but not sure. As JB said I'm sure Hebden would find you some ethical feel good shoes!

[SA Chris]

Must be, there are quite a few comfortable shoe wearers there.