[stone]

This morning at 08:15am BBC R4 had a thought provoking item with Esther Rantzen and Amy Proffitt talking for and against the assisted dying bill being debated in UK Parliament today.

I was uncomfortable with Esther Rantzen's comment that she thought her dog's death was better than her mother or husband's had been. I know she means well and also that it was a light hearted comment. It made me reflect though that my fish at work are one stage further along than her dog in terms of luxury/"dignity". Her dog had to endure old age. My fish all get euthanised before they become elderly and that is (rightly) insisted on by animal welfare officers etc for lab animals.

Perhaps what is messed up is people seeing it as somehow being undignified to be demented and incontinent or whatever. When we are new born babies, we are like that and everyone is fine with that.

I'm throwing this out there because I've got very limited experience, knowledge or insight on this and am keen to hear others' perspectives.

[Oldmanmatt]

This morning at 08:15am BBC R4 had a thought provoking item with Esther Rantzen and Amy Proffitt talking for and against the assisted dying bill being debated in UK Parliament today.

I was uncomfortable with Esther Rantzen's comment that she thought her dog's death was better than her mother or husband's had been. I know she means well and also that it was a light hearted comment. It made me reflect though that my fish at work are one stage further along than her dog in terms of luxury/"dignity". Her dog had to endure old age. My fish all get euthanised before they become elderly and that is (rightly) insisted on by animal welfare officers etc for lab animals.

Perhaps what is messed up is people seeing it as somehow being undignified to be demented and incontinent or whatever. When we are new born babies, we are like that and everyone is fine with that.

I'm throwing this out there because I've got very limited experience, knowledge or insight on this and am keen to hear others' perspectives.

It’s not as simple as indignity, it’s often pain and suffering. I know my wife would have taken the option, many months before she died and I would have carried out myself.
The whole thing is a nightmare though and far from simple, unless we want a “Logan’s run” world.

[Aussiegav]

Wow Stone, another  heavy topic thread.
Like your style! 

Having more than 2 decades of working in elderly care, complex dementia & intensive care, including the first two waves of COVID, I’ve seen a lot of death. Much of it quite drawn out and horrible for both the person and their loved ones.
So from a professional perspective I’m a strong believer that the approach to care and its delivery can be a lot better.

From a personal perspective, having had a family member have a prolonged painful and mentally painful end stage of life due to cancer, my feelings are the same.

[remus]

Perhaps what is messed up is people seeing it as somehow being undignified to be demented and incontinent or whatever. When we are new born babies, we are like that and everyone is fine with that.

One significant difference is that a new born child has ~75 years of quality living ahead of them, whereas a dementia patient is unlikely to have lots of quality living ahead of them.

Personally I hope assisted dying is legal by the time Im at risk. It seems to work well in other countries, and forcing people to suffer through poor-quality of life with little hope of enjoyment seems unusually cruel.

[chriss]

Wow heavy indeed, possibly deserving of a woke 'trigger warning '

My older brother died of cancer about 25 years ago when he was only 23. Sitting watching him die slowly with my parents and younger brother is the most freeing, but horrific experience I've ever had.

The only save grace was that they pumped him so full of morphine he wasn't in pain. Given the choice he & we as a family would of ended his life earlier and with more dignity.

[MischaHY]

Having witnessed the effect on my close family of my grandmothers slow descent into alzheimers over a five year period I agree that it would be better for everyone with a similar diagnosis to be able to go gently into the good night. There's no grace in losing your mind and memories.

[mrjonathanr]

Perhaps what is messed up is people seeing it as somehow being undignified to be demented and incontinent or whatever. When we are new born babies, we are like that and everyone is fine with that.

When I get very old, I do hope the people around me recognise that I have more agency than a newborn baby.

[stone]

Perhaps what is messed up is people seeing it as somehow being undignified to be demented and incontinent or whatever. When we are new born babies, we are like that and everyone is fine with that.

When I get very old, I do hope the people around me recognise that I have more agency than a newborn baby.

My impression (happy to be corrected) is that when people say they want to "die with dignity", what they mean is minimising the period when they lack agency. Sometimes disease does cause us to lose all agency doesn't it?

I haven't really got a coherant view about all of this myself. That is why I was asking everyone on here. I was struck by what Amy Proffitt was saying. She was wanting better resourced palliative end-of-life care, but very much not wanting this assisted dying bill to go through. 

Coronation Street (the TV soap) currently has a storyline about a character with MND and wishing to have assisted dying. I thought they did a good job showing all kinds of consequent strains in the relationships with those around him. The situation seemed similar in a Louis Theroux episode interviewing families where it was legal in the USA.

[stone]

I just googled and saw that Amy Proffitt also wrote something about this subject when the RCP was choosing what position to take: https://www.rcplondon.ac.uk/news/assisted-dying-why-rcp-should-be-opposed

[mrjonathanr]

My impression (happy to be corrected) is that when people say they want to "die with dignity", what they mean is minimising the period when they lack agency. Sometimes disease does cause us to lose all agency doesn't it?

Depends rather on your understanding of the term, but it’s not just loss of mental capacity that people want to avoid. The end stage of life with illness can result in miserable loss of bodily control, although the mind may be still sharp.  I’ve known people who have lost either physical or mental capacity. It’s grim. I won’t elaborate.

The issue is an individual’s right to choose rather than be told. It’s an important topic, but feel you might be oversimplifying the reasons for making that choice tbh.  Whatever the simplicity of the moral issue - control of your own destiny- fashioning good law around that will be tricky.

[stone]

The whole thing is a nightmare though and far from simple, unless we want a “Logan’s run” world.

I was unaware of "Logan's run" and just Googled. Thanks! -that is exactly what I was thinking of when I drew comparison to my fish at work which are kept in a "Logan's run" style.

I was thinking that Esther Rantzen wouldn't want that for her dog, and instead herself makes a judgement as to where to draw the line. But that is simple for her dog because the dog doesn't get a say. With a person, there is a fraught dynamic, where the patient is thinking of those around them and the family/society have conflicting emotions and social pressures -not to mention financial stresses -or a wish to have no perception of being influenced by such considerations etc etc.

My impression, from both the Coronation Street story line and the Louis Theroux documentary, was that having to deal with such dilemmas was another raft of anguish and the last thing we'd want to saddle patients and families with.