Who owns what, why and for how long? (Read 8465 times)

uptown · July 23, 2009, 03:07:26 pm

Perplexed by the thread title? You needn't be, it's a simple question really.
Many moons ago I spyed a couple of good looking new lines to do at Kilnsey. Yesterday I looked at one of them again, intending to chuck some bolts in, yet saw someone has beaten me to it.

What is the general etiquette these days for ownership of lines?
These days I no longer believe that by bolting something you should indefinitely lay claim to it, yet obviously I'm no thief.
Get those opinions out peeps, and give me any appropriate stories from days gone by.

ChrisC · July 23, 2009, 03:22:13 pm

Quote

give me any appropriate stories from days gone by.

I've been told/read in the past that Mental Pygmy at Black Rocks was named after the reaction of the person who wanted the 1st ascent when they found out it had been done?

Sloper · July 23, 2009, 07:10:15 pm

'The little bastard', some one about J Woodward after Beau Geste.

My view is that if you've bolted it an are making progress fine everyone else should leave it alone, if it's trad then it's an open project from day one.

Doylo · July 23, 2009, 07:13:18 pm

i think if someones gone to the effort of bolting something they should be given a chance to climb it first.

clm · July 23, 2009, 09:15:33 pm

Fuck it. send it, delete this thread and claim ignorance...

uptown · July 23, 2009, 09:35:22 pm

Quote from: clm on July 23, 2009, 09:15:33 pm

Fuck it. send it, delete this thread and claim ignorance...

Ha, I like that.

I could always chop the bolts and replace them with my own too?

Nike Air · July 23, 2009, 10:43:44 pm

Quote from: uptownguru on July 23, 2009, 03:07:26 pm

Yesterday I looked at one of them again, intending to chuck some bolts in, yet saw someone has beaten me to it.

Is this the line left of Smooth torquer by any chance??

uptown · July 23, 2009, 10:51:18 pm

Quote from: Jordan on July 23, 2009, 10:43:44 pm

Is this the line left of Smooth torquer by any chance??

No, wasn't that a Matt Smythe bolt from the 90's?

Nike Air · July 23, 2009, 10:56:10 pm

No, wasn't that a Matt Smythe bolt from the 90's?
[/quote]

Na, Ste Dunnings bolts i ve been told, looks good, even better with a bit of chalk and some hangers... Which line you talking about?

clm · July 24, 2009, 06:23:41 pm

Sounding a bit like tis jordans line and he doesnt want to draw attention to it.

Nike Air · July 24, 2009, 07:46:56 pm

Would not even know how to bolt a gate! Just making coversation. Kilnseys gaps do need plugging tho!

Bonjoy · July 25, 2009, 09:25:06 am

It seems to be the general norm to give whoever bolted it a reasonable grace period.

Ru · July 25, 2009, 09:33:45 am

I think that as long as it is still being actively tried then a project should be left alone. Even in this age of route-saturated rock there's a lot of projects left if you want one.

uptown · July 25, 2009, 09:34:51 am

Quote from: Bonjoy on July 25, 2009, 09:25:06 am

It seems to be the general norm to give whoever bolted it a reasonable grace period.

Yes, quite.

No-one seems to have answered the original question though.
You know I've placed a lot of bolts for work Jon, to me drilling holes is a fair 'bagsy' but how long should that 'bagsy' last? Weeks, months, years?
If the 'workman' has many unclimbed claims, are they just overbiting?
I guess the largest problem is not knowing who did the deed - if I knew I'd ask directly - otherwise we're just spouting philosophical conjecture - I might put a webcam up there...

Bonjoy · July 25, 2009, 10:01:31 am

In practice the grace period seems to vary according to who's line it is and where it is. I've never been in a position to have to make such a call.
Whenever I've bolted a route I've then gone on to work it until I've done it in a matter of days or a few weeks at most. The only exception has been a project at The Cornice which hasn't been properly dry since the day I bolted it so I haven't had a chance to try it properly. Once it does dry I'd like to have at least a couple of months trying it as it it's a very hard line for me and would take at least that long for me to get up. I'd probably remove a hanger or tape a hanger to show I was actively trying it. After that I'd probably put the hanger back on and point some beast at it.

Andy F · July 25, 2009, 10:27:57 am

The line between Myra Hindley and Subculture (if this is the one you're on about) was bolted by Aaron Tonks last week. He was trying it on Thursday and the comments went a bit like this:

First go "It's about 7c"
Second go "it's about 7c+"
Third go "It's probably 8a"

I left him at that point, it could have been 8b by the time he finished...

uptown · July 25, 2009, 10:34:47 am

Quote from: Andy F on July 25, 2009, 10:27:57 am

First go "It's about 7c"
Second go "it's about 7c+"
Third go "It's probably 8a"

I left him at that point, it could have been 8b by the time he finished...

That's the one, looks very good. I'll give him a few more days then, only fair...

Looks like he's doing it from the Myra start then, I was thinking of starting up SC.

Andy F · July 25, 2009, 10:45:13 am

Aaron thought that the SC start would go as well, at a similar grade.

nik at work · July 25, 2009, 10:50:46 am

As a complete sport know-nothing a question springs to mind. Would it be cricket to try the route in question but not do it? Perhaps failing on the last move (assuming of course you can get up it). Or would that been seen as "taking the piss"?

Andy F · July 25, 2009, 10:55:13 am

It's not really cricket to try the route without the bolter's say so. Unless of course they don't know about it...

nik at work · July 25, 2009, 10:57:21 am

Fair enough, I was just wondering rather than suggesting a course of action.
I seem to be having enough trouble getting up any existing routes without getting involved in unclimbed bits of rock...

hongkongstuey · July 27, 2009, 06:41:23 am

Quote from: nik at work on July 25, 2009, 10:50:46 am

As a complete sport know-nothing a question springs to mind. Would it be cricket to try the route in question but not do it? Perhaps failing on the last move (assuming of course you can get up it). Or would that been seen as "taking the piss"?

I've encouraged others to 'play' on some of my projects before just to try and get feedback on grade/sequences etc. - however, I typically make sure I'm the one holding the ropes so I can conviniently forget to pay any more out if they look like sending....

Joepicalli · July 27, 2009, 11:08:31 am

I remember back in the day Peggo did Scavenger at Malham which had been bolted and left by I can't remember who. He began his route description "First make sure your prey is dead..."

shark · July 27, 2009, 08:33:47 pm

Quote from: nik at work on July 25, 2009, 10:50:46 am

As a complete sport know-nothing a question springs to mind. Would it be cricket to try the route in question but not do it? Perhaps failing on the last move (assuming of course you can get up it). Or would that been seen as "taking the piss"?

IIRC Dunne did that with Predator ie jumping off just before the belay as it had been bolted by Steve Rhodes but then claimed it anyway. There is another case of a second ascentionsit still under the impression that he is the first although its widely known he isn't but no one wants to piss on his fire. Games climbers play..

nik at work · July 27, 2009, 08:46:07 pm

Quote from: Simon Lee on July 27, 2009, 08:33:47 pm

There is another case of a second ascentionsit still under the impression that he is the first although its widely known he isn't but no one wants to piss on his fire. Games climbers play..

That seems very silly, why not just tell him? I mean if the real ascentionist was genuinely that bothered about not wanting to "piss on the fire" of the original bolter then why not just not finish the route, it's not that hard to just let go before the belay.

shark · July 27, 2009, 10:27:00 pm

Quote from: nik at work on July 27, 2009, 08:46:07 pm

I mean if the real ascentionist was genuinely that bothered about not wanting to "piss on the fire" of the original bolter then why not just not finish the route, it's not that hard to just let go before the belay.

For the same reason that no one voluntarily lets go before the belay I imagine - we all want to tick the route.

robertostallioni · July 27, 2009, 10:32:27 pm

The closer you get, the harder it is to stop.

uptown · July 29, 2009, 03:00:38 pm

The line I was originally referring to was between Myra Hindley and Subculture. Aaron Tonks climbed it on Saturday at somewhere in the region of 7c+/8a, and I don't think it's been repeated yet.
It looks very worthy, great rock, though AT reckoned it has a hard egyptian clip for the fourth bolt, and it might need a touch of glue on a hold right of the third bolt.
Well done Aaron for a quick and worthy product.
Oh, it's called something like Rabbits and Pigeons in French...

To add to the tales...from 'The rumble in the jungle' at WCJ Cornice...

"On approaching the buttress one day, Pollitt noticed John-Baptiste Tribout attempting his unclimbed line. Instead of paddling the weir, an irate guerilla-like Pollitt reputedly took a short-cut and waded waist-high through the swamp to challenge Tribout!"

Tickler · August 05, 2009, 02:00:24 pm

That Pollitt story is brilliant!

Just remember that equipping a route takes vision and requires the resolution and skill to realise that vision.
Bolting routes is exceptionally strenuous, especially on steeper rock - it's certainly much harder than simply going climbing!
I'm sure most of us would just rather go climbing than waste our limited climbing days cleaning, drilling and bolting. Yet ultimately we all rely on the tenacity of dedicated individuals to 'create' the great routes we climb every week.
Read these comments carefully since I hope they give an understanding into the bolter claiming first ascension rites.

I've resurrected this thread since I have just bolted a route between Over the Moon and The Walking Mussel at LPT - the first new route here for 10 years (I think!). I'm sure this will attract plenty of attention, so please respect the fact that I've spent time, effort and money gearing this by not climbing it until I have!

Thanks!
Tommy
North Wales

SA Chris · August 05, 2009, 02:11:14 pm

Quote from: Tickler on August 05, 2009, 02:00:24 pm

I'm sure this will attract plenty of attention, so please respect the fact that I've spent time, effort and money gearing this by not climbing it until I have!

Now you tell me. Sorry.

(divven't fret I huvnae set foot in Wales for 5 years)

uptown · August 09, 2009, 03:47:16 pm

Best of luck Tickler - keep us posted on here as to how you get on / when you do it. New sport routes don't seem to get much publicity nowadays unless the numbers are big.

Tickler · August 24, 2009, 10:02:32 am

Quote from: Tickler on August 05, 2009, 02:00:24 pm

That Pollitt story is brilliant!

Just remember that equipping a route takes vision and requires the resolution and skill to realise that vision.
Bolting routes is exceptionally strenuous, especially on steeper rock - it's certainly much harder than simply going climbing!
I'm sure most of us would just rather go climbing than waste our limited climbing days cleaning, drilling and bolting. Yet ultimately we all rely on the tenacity of dedicated individuals to 'create' the great routes we climb every week.
Read these comments carefully since I hope they give an understanding into the bolter claiming first ascension rites.

I've resurrected this thread since I have just bolted a route between Over the Moon and The Walking Mussel at LPT - the first new route here for 10 years (I think!). I'm sure this will attract plenty of attention, so please respect the fact that I've spent time, effort and money gearing this by not climbing it until I have!

Looks like I owned it for 3 weeks...

Moonwalk 8a+ now awaits a second ascent