[slackline]

With an aging laptop it will likely struggle with either GNOME or KDE as the desktop environment, but Xfce4 is a good comprehensive, light-weight option.

This is the default desktop environment on Xubuntu, and Ubuntu is the easiest distro to get up and running.  That said you might want to consider the Mint Linux version that comes with Xfce4 (grab from here), as after Nik put me onto it in this thread I've heard it improves on the base Ubuntu distribution that its based on in terms of computer management.

Multi-language support is a piece of piss or you can just choose to have Japanese when booting the disc prior to install.

[Tris]

I would say the vast majority of Linux distros will have a release that will run on your laptop. I have Puppy linux running on a Pentium I 90Mhz machine with no issues.

Slack---line recently pointed me to a base install of EEEbuntu which impressed me and I now have on my netbook..

Out of the Ubuntu variants I prefer Kubuntu because I like the KDE interface as it is most like Windows. (sorry slack---line)

[slackline]

Its horses for courses when it comes to Desktop Environments (DEs) / Window Managers (WMs).

The thing is that whilst KDE does look nice both it and GNOME are quite resource intensive, so whilst they'll run on low frq CPUs/low RAM, they're going to be using a fair bit of the resources.  Personally I'd rather have those available for the web-browser (main thing I do on the laptop), which is why I advocate using a lightweight DE/WM.

I use Fluxbox on my laptop which is even more basic than Xfce4 but then you all know I'm a sad geek already 

[Tris]

Fluxbox looks cool, however I like stuff straight out of the box (I'm lazy) - it looks like there is a fair amount of customisation to do..

On a side note, what (if anything) do you use to back up your linux systems? Can you recommend anything? I literally know nothing about backing up linux systems. I'm assuming there are generic tools like ufsdump or mksysb?

[slackline]

I tend not to back up the system as its relatively easy to re-install (although I probably should as there's tons of stuff in /etc/* that has been tweaked).  Data I back up using rsync which is an excellent tool.

Just installed a RAID1 in my computer though, whilst the OS isn't residing on it I may well add an extra partition (as I'm running LVM over the top) to back the system up to nightly using a cron task.

[Johnny Brown]

BACKUPDIR=`date +%A`
OPTS="--force --ignore-errors --delete-excluded --exclude-from=$EXCLUDES
      --delete --backup --backup-dir=/$BACKUPDIR -a"

export PATH=$PATH:/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin

# the following line clears the last weeks incremental directory
[ -d $HOME/emptydir ] || mkdir $HOME/emptydir
rsync --delete -a $HOME/emptydir/ $BSERVER::$USER/$BACKUPDIR/
rmdir $HOME/emptydir

Looks well user friendly.

I am actually looking for some decent sync software since syncback stopped doing the free version - any other ideas?

[Tris]

I've actually got one of these in my home pc with 4 drives in a RAID 5 setup so I am not worried about my data. OS is on 2 other drives (RAID 1) on a different card.

It's just I have an old Kubuntu laptop that I spent a lot of time tweaking the setup/apps and I want to back it up (there's no data that I want on it).

Now I was just going to use Ghost and just save the whole partition, but then I thought well is there a linux app that is better and would allow me to restore the OS to another machine?

[butters]

BACKUPDIR=`date +%A`
OPTS="--force --ignore-errors --delete-excluded --exclude-from=$EXCLUDES
      --delete --backup --backup-dir=/$BACKUPDIR -a"

export PATH=$PATH:/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin

# the following line clears the last weeks incremental directory
[ -d $HOME/emptydir ] || mkdir $HOME/emptydir
rsync --delete -a $HOME/emptydir/ $BSERVER::$USER/$BACKUPDIR/
rmdir $HOME/emptydir

Looks well user friendly.

I am actually looking for some decent sync software since syncback stopped doing the free version - any other ideas?

Doesn't look that bad actually - just a matter of figuring out the syntax and the switches and it becomes legible to a degree. Having said that I am used to looking at a load of seemingly random commands and deciphering them into some sort of language that I can understand.

[slackline]

Code: [Select]

BACKUPDIR=`date +%A`
OPTS="--force --ignore-errors --delete-excluded --exclude-from=$EXCLUDES
      --delete --backup --backup-dir=/$BACKUPDIR -a"

export PATH=$PATH:/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin

# the following line clears the last weeks incremental directory
[ -d $HOME/emptydir ] || mkdir $HOME/emptydir
rsync --delete -a $HOME/emptydir/ $BSERVER::$USER/$BACKUPDIR/
rmdir $HOME/emptydir

The options are set, but not used in the above code.

Personally I tend to use something along the lines of...

Code: [Select]

rsync -avz [/dir/i/want/to/backup] [/where/i/want/to/back/it/up/to]

Conceptually its no more complicated than having a GUI where you tick boxes for options you want to enable, or text fields where you enter directory paths.

[Johnny Brown]

Its almost 2010. I don't care how 'conceptually' easy it is, I'm not typing code. I should have a jetpack and a usb port by now.

[Tris]

Its almost 2010. I don't care how 'conceptually' easy it is, I'm not typing code. I should have a jetpack and a usb port by now.

[duncan]

Thanks very much.  I'll give it a whirl.

[slackline]

Its almost 2010. I don't care how 'conceptually' easy it is, I'm not typing code. I should have a jetpack and a usb port by now.

This isn't a personal dig at all, but I find the reluctance to take full advantage of using humans hands, which are highly articulated and intricate limbs, evolved and refined over millions of years to help us manipulate our environment  (which in part likely helped with the development of cognition and sentience) are essentially dumbed down to a two-pronged stump (or one if you're a Mac user) when it comes to using computers.

Yes there's a learning curve to using a CLI, but once you start mastering it, its far more powerful than a point-and-click approach, and you're using your hands in a far more intricate way (and your mind to think through how to use the CLI commands and options smartly).

[nik at work]

Slackers your Linux evangilism is great but...

Some (most?) people don't get a computer to learn programming, in much the same way as people don't buy cars to learn how to be mechanics.

[slackline]

Slackers your Linux evangilism is great but...

Some (most?) people don't get a computer to learn programming, in much the same way as people don't buy cars to learn how to be mechanics.

Not sure if its further back in this thread, but I don't "program" much in Linux.  I learnt some very basic C about 10 years ago and haven't used it since.  Occasionally knock up some basic Perl scripts for manipulating text files, and also program in two statistical software packages (R and Stata).  None of these are about using a CLI.

I use the CLI for moving files around which many people do using a graphical file manager.  One simple example is the very useful exiftool.  I had my pictures stored all over the place, but on the new system I've built wanted to change this to be chronological.  One command will take all the files in /home/slackline/oldpics/* and move them into a hierarchical YYYY/MM/DD directory structure..

Code: [Select]

exiftool -d %Y/%m/%d "-directory<datetimeoriginal" /home/slackline/oldpics/

There's a whole plethora of smart tricks that can be used at the command line to quickly and easily achieve what would take 20+ mouse clicks.

The other simple thing I use the command line (and a text editor for) is configuration files, instead of having a menu with tick boxes or options, these are essentially just front ends to plain text files.

This is a sample configuration file for an app called conky which displays lots of useful information (that you choose) about system status and process'...

Code: [Select]

# Conky, a system monitor, based on torsmo
#
# Any original torsmo code is licensed under the BSD license
#
# All code written since the fork of torsmo is licensed under the GPL
#
# Please see COPYING for details
#
# Copyright (c) 2004, Hannu Saransaari and Lauri Hakkarainen
# Copyright (c) 2005-2009 Brenden Matthews, Philip Kovacs, et. al. (see AUTHORS)
# All rights reserved.
#
# This program is free software: you can redistribute it and/or modify
# it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
# the Free Software Foundation, either version 3 of the License, or
# (at your option) any later version.
#
# This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
# but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
# MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
# GNU General Public License for more details.
# You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
# along with this program.  If not, see <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/>.
#

alignment top_left
background no
border_width 1
cpu_avg_samples 2
default_color white
default_outline_color white
default_shade_color white
draw_borders no
draw_graph_borders yes
draw_outline no
draw_shades no
use_xft yes
xftfont DejaVu Sans Mono:size=12
gap_x 5
gap_y 60
minimum_size 5 5
net_avg_samples 2
no_buffers yes
out_to_console no
out_to_stderr no
extra_newline no
own_window yes
own_window_class Conky
own_window_type desktop
stippled_borders 0
update_interval 1.0
uppercase no
use_spacer none
show_graph_scale no
show_graph_range no

Just a series of logical switches (yes/no) which is no different to ticking a box or not.  Sure some people are more "visual" learners, but you still need to understand what enabling something is doing either way.



And whilst people may not wish to learn how to be mechanics, many fail how to learn how to drive (to stick with the analogy), hence the frustration when things don't "just work"^TM.

Here's an example of complete failure to even understand basic terminology...



Sure they can still use their computer to do what they want, but at some point they're going to get stuck, and without having the correct vocabulary to convey what their problem is it will be a very frustrating call to tech support.

I do realise that not everyone needs or wants to know the level of detail that I do, but many are also ignorant of a lot of basic things that would make their computing experience far easier and less painful.  Worst of all is that some don't even want to make the effort to learn this.

There is also the caveat that many people are prejudiced towards one particular OS that they grew up with, and aren't even willing to try alternatives (yes, I know there is the old line of "Pro" software not available on say Linux or IRIX, but thats not the majority of users, but a subset).  Most people would get by fine with a web-browser, email client, something to manage their music/pics/video and some office software on a day to day basis.

And that brings todays sermon to a close (apologies I spent the day out of the office and have been getting computer withdrawl symptoms).

[Johnny Brown]

I was joking - I never really expected a usb port by now. What os would you dare install on that?  I have taught myself html, css and even some java to code my website. I've no desire to do any more coding than that though. Why? I don't want to have to go through everything I type with a needle trying to find the misplaced space that is preventing it from working.

[slackline]

There's a difference though between writing pages of html/css/C/C+/C++/Perl/Python/Ruby/PHP/etc. code and having to then debug the errors to writing one line, albeit sometimes long (but facilitated with Tab-autocompletion of commands and path-names, which help mitigate against errors).

[Tris]

Problems with stains? Use Linux, it's great

[Tris]

Mr S - this has to be your favourite linux distro surely?

http://www.slackware.com/

[tomtom]

Problems with stains? Use Linux, it's great

Wow, instead of inserting in my machine, I can insert my laptop in linux!

[slackline]

It was the second distro I used, think I picked it up around version 8/9, although the first I used on my own home computers (first being RedHat7.3 on a computer at work, got rather pissed off with that fairly quickly due to annoying circular dependencies where Package A requires Package B which requires Package C which requires Package A  ).

I liked Slackware and learnt a lot as you have to install everything from source and be comfortable using the CLI as opposed to having GUI's that hold your hand for you, but it got to be a ball-ache when a package had lots (> 5) dependencies that weren't installed and I had to go and get, configure and install all of them.  What I found even more annoying was that it was a real pain in the arse removing packages.  Well not so much an individual package, but cleaning out unwanted dependencies.  Very frustrating if I got it wrong and removed a package that was still required by another program.

Another excellent distribution that is based on Slackware is Slax which provides you with an easy way to build your own customised bootable distribution.

In the end I switched to Gentoo because of its excellent package management (called portage, which is based on the ports package management systems used in BSD).

[Tris]

It was the second distro I used, think I picked it up around version 8/9, although the first I used on my own home computers (first being RedHat7.3 on a computer at work, got rather pissed off with that fairly quickly due to annoying circular dependencies where Package A requires Package B which requires Package C which requires Package A  ).

I liked Slackware and learnt a lot as you have to install everything from source and be comfortable using the CLI as opposed to having GUI's that hold your hand for you, but it got to be a ball-ache when a package had lots (> 5) dependencies that weren't installed and I had to go and get, configure and install all of them.  What I found even more annoying was that it was a real pain in the arse removing packages.  Well not so much an individual package, but cleaning out unwanted dependencies.  Very frustrating if I got it wrong and removed a package that was still required by another program.

that sounds like the general public's experience of Linux 

[slackline]

It was the second distro I used, think I picked it up around version 8/9, although the first I used on my own home computers (first being RedHat7.3 on a computer at work, got rather pissed off with that fairly quickly due to annoying circular dependencies where Package A requires Package B which requires Package C which requires Package A  ).

I liked Slackware and learnt a lot as you have to install everything from source and be comfortable using the CLI as opposed to having GUI's that hold your hand for you, but it got to be a ball-ache when a package had lots (> 5) dependencies that weren't installed and I had to go and get, configure and install all of them.  What I found even more annoying was that it was a real pain in the arse removing packages.  Well not so much an individual package, but cleaning out unwanted dependencies.  Very frustrating if I got it wrong and removed a package that was still required by another program.

that sounds like the general public's experience of Linux M$ Windows Vista 

 

Like I always harp, a computer and its OS is simply a very complex tool, and as with all tools you need to learn how to use them.  For various historical reasons M$ has insidiously crept into the subconscious of the masses such that everyone just assumes that its the only operating system around and even worse that they couldn't possibly cope with anything else, so don't even bother trying.  There is a learning curve to making a switch to a different OS, and that can be something that quite reasonably many people don't want to go through, but the gradient of that learning curve has lessened massively over the past decade and its not very steep really these days (besides which many people are happy to jump to Mac's 'cause they're pretty, but massively over-priced).

[Johnny Brown]

I don't think people buy macs cos they're pretty.

They buy them because a) they are reputed 'just to work' and b) they have the most advanced/ refined user interface that allows them to forget they are dealing with a bunch of fucking logic gates that only deal in ones and zeros.

That's what people want. They don't ever want to be presented with a command prompt. Its nearly 2010, I don't want to type shit into google to get answers, I want to ask some holographic bird floating on my right. Fucking keyboards, I want the future, they said we'd be there by now!

[cofe]

I think I just wet myself.