[tregiffian]

+1

[galpinos]

 Matt, that's a nice funny post but as you and I know, it's bollocks.

On a couple of specific points.

No one has ever voted for a PM, it's not how are system works.

If he voted for JC as his MP, he didn't have to pay last time and won't have to pay at the next GE. If he voted for JC in the last leadership election he'll still be a member and won't have to pay to vote this time.

On the unelectable front, he was overwhelmingly electable within his party, but might still be unelectable in a GE, we might never know?

Democracy relies on some people not getting what they want. We had the option of changing our system to something more representative and it turns out no one actually cared so we've got what we've got.

As much as I wanted to stay in the EU and am not exactly keen on May and the new cabinet, it's our system, it's what more people wanted than not so it's what we've got.

[BrutusTheBear]

Matt, that's a nice funny post but as you and I know, it's bollocks.

On a couple of specific points.

No one has ever voted for a PM, it's not how are system works.

If he voted for JC as his MP, he didn't have to pay last time and won't have to pay at the next GE. If he voted for JC in the last leadership election he'll still be a member and won't have to pay to vote this time.

On the unelectable front, he was overwhelmingly electable within his party, but might still be unelectable in a GE, we might never know?

Democracy relies on some people not getting what they want. We had the option of changing our system to something more representative and it turns out no one actually cared so we've got what we've got.

As much as I wanted to stay in the EU and am not exactly keen on May and the new cabinet, it's our system, it's what more people wanted than not so it's what we've got.

Your specific points aren't all correct.  Maybe you and OMM know something I don't know but it's not all bollocks.

If you happened to vote for JC as your MP or indeed in the leadership contest as an affiliated supporter you would have paid £3 at the time.  You won't be able to vote again, this time, by the same means without paying £25.  If you joined the party in good faith after 12th Jan knowing that your membership includes voting rights in party matters, (as stated in the terms when you signed up), you will now have to vote via the new £25 route because they're not letting you vote as a party member.  If you were a member of an affiliated trade union at the time which you have now left (this applies to me - change of career) and joined a new trade union post 12th Jan the same applies.  If you live in relative poverty and can't afford £25 you won't be able to vote.

This is correct though - democracy does rely on some people not getting what they want.  In this case the neo-liberalists in the PLP and NEC aren't getting what they want, they've attempted a media onslaught, they've attempted to apply pressure via whatever methods (including bare faced lies) and networks are available.  So now they're changing the rules (probably illegally) in another attempt to get what they want.

Just to throw something different into the mix, a few weeks ago I was almost convinced by the he's not electable, he's a weak leader mantra that has been spouted endlessly since his democratic and overwhelmingly convincing election by party members.  However, having pondered and then observed events over recent times... I am more and more of the view that JC is very electable, that he is a major threat to the establishment, he is actual opposition and has the potential to change democracy in our country for the better.  The permanent shit storm that is being thrown at him and his supporters would indicate that his detractors think the same.

[a dense loner]

Or that they think he's as much use as a wet fish?

[BrutusTheBear]

Wet fish tend to get ignored Dense..







Damn it why did I reply to your post?

[a dense loner]

Not when they start off anti-establishment which is what labour needed to be appealing at the time of his ascension, to oppose the tories obviously. His stance was totally at odds with them, ie nuclear. I could go on but get easily bored. He's now been at the helm for a short while and not only the public but his party have brought the knives out as well. I don't see him as a leader in any way shape or form just someone arguing the opposite point to someone in power, which is a very easy thing to do. But that's my own opinion.

In other words he couldn't run a fucking bath.

[Mike Highbury]

If you happened to vote for JC as your MP or indeed in the leadership contest as an affiliated supporter you would have paid £3 at the time. 

Hang about. I voted for that twat in the GE last time and the time before that ... ad infinitum ... and it didn't cost me £3. My soul maybe, but not three quid.

[BrutusTheBear]

If you happened to vote for JC as your MP or indeed in the leadership contest as an affiliated supporter you would have paid £3 at the time. 

Hang about. I voted for that twat in the GE last time and the time before that ... ad infinitum ... and it didn't cost me £3. My soul maybe, but not three quid.

  Of course it's free to vote for your chosen twat/candidate in the GE (even if it makes you soulless), what we are referring is the cost of voting in party based election within the Labour Party.  If you want to have a pop in this leadership 'contest', you have a 48hr window, it'll cost you £25 to register as an affiliated supporter and your soul. (oh no you've already used it so maybe you can borrow one?) 
On the other hand the conservatives don't bother consulting their membership when electing leaders until they have it down to two candidates when the membership can then vote..  Oh no, now one person just throws in the towel to save people losing their souls.

[a dense loner]

Wtf! £25 a vote! I'd be wanting some Australian parties over here so I could at least get a burger out of them!

[BrutusTheBear]

Wtf! £25 a vote! I'd be wanting some Australian parties over here so I could at least get a burger out of them!

  Indeed..  Democracy.  Obviously trying to price out the riff raff.

[i.munro]

On a couple of specific points.

No one has ever voted for a PM, it's not how are system works.

The reason for that is that we historically have a representative democracy.
However, apparently , there's been a revolution and we no longer do.
Otherwise it wouldn't be possible to take the most significant decision since at least 1939 without consulting parliament.

[tomtom]

Wet fish tend to get ignored Dense.

Which is of course why he has been so useless as leader of the opposition.

All this 'having to pay 25 to vote isn't democracy' stuff is utter rubbish. If you join or support (£3) the Labour Party you are paying a membership fee to a political organisation, not a democratic system! It's like paying to join a club -the comparisons made in OMM's quote are nuts - and if you think paying £3 means you should have an influence on how the government is being run now then you're deluded.

If you want to see real threats to a democracy turn on news24 right now...

[BrutusTheBear]

Wet fish tend to get ignored Dense.

Which is of course why he has been so useless as leader of the opposition.

All this 'having to pay 25 to vote isn't democracy' stuff is utter rubbish. If you join or support (£3) the Labour Party you are paying a membership fee to a political organisation, not a democratic system! It's like paying to join a club -the comparisons made in OMM's quote are nuts - and if you think paying £3 means you should have an influence on how the government is being run now then you're deluded.

If you want to see real threats to a democracy turn on news24 right now...

I was wondering what point you were making for a moment and then realised you meant he is being ignored therefore he is a useless leader, I think?!  But he's not being ignored is he, he's undergone relentless flack from the media from the off, far from being ignored he has been attacked.  You would argue he's been attacked because he's useless, I would argue the opposite.  Time will tell if either of us is correct.

At what point did I say paying £3 should give you a say in how a government is being run?  I resent being called deluded particularly if I am being called deluded based on something you've just made up.  Maybe you've had the wool pulled over your eyes?

Personally I think everyone should have a say in how a government is being run for free.  Truth of the matter is that those with most wealth and power have the biggest say in how government is run, that is not true and functioning democracy is it?  I would argue that the reason why this movement is such a threat is because it dares to challenge this status quo.

So am I right in thinking, you are using the example of a military coup in Turkey to justify the current shenanigans that is aimed at preventing people from electing someone to represent them?  Should I just accept what is happening because things are way worse somewhere else? 
'It's OK, you guys carry on changing the rules and doing what the hell you want at least it's not a military coup.'

I reckon our democracy is a sham and that you are Tony Blair's love child, I claim my £3 (actually let's make it £25 + 1 soul).

[Oldmanmatt]

I was just passing on a joke a mate had made.

Ho hum.


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. Looking at you, here, Dense. 

[BrutusTheBear]

I was just passing on a joke a mate had made.

Ho hum.


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. Looking at you, here, Dense.

I liked it.

[a dense loner]

But then again you didn't like JC til a few weeks ago

[tomtom]

I was just passing on a joke a mate had made.

Ho hum.


All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. Looking at you, here, Dense.

Soz OMM, missed the context..

[a dense loner]

Missed the context of one of omm' posts?

[tomtom]

Missed the context of one of omm' posts?

Mild sleep deprivation (so far) and howling 7 day old baby are my excuses...

[BrutusTheBear]

But then again you didn't like JC til a few weeks ago.

Sheez! Will you guys stop making stuff up. I never ever said I didn't like JC, I said I was almost convinced by the mainstream narrative that he is unelectable.  I have always 'liked' him.

Wisdom is absorbing information and changing one's view when presented with something convincing.  It's Ok to change your view overtime, so what if I hadn't liked JC 2 weeks ago and I changed my mind?

Dense maybe you are now overwhelmed by my convincing arguments and in your wisdom are softening towards JC..  It'll only cost you £25 or indeed you could vote for one Angela or Mr Pfizer should you wish.


There are strong voices on here, I thought I would come on here and represent a different view point to balance things out.  Maybe there are those out that there that agree with me or can at least understand why someone might come to the same conclusions.

[a dense loner]

I don't dislike JC I just don't share your views on him. I thought somebody's fools small novel on here last wk was inspired, a really good summation of stuff but when I saw he was on about JC I cringed. Any other name and I'd have thought brilliant stuff.

Changing your own view over time is obviously fine, it's when that person who has seen the light tries to convert others that the trouble begins. That's not directed at you btw Brutus. The last but one sentence was a bit lazy but I'll leave it there for some sport.

[Oldmanmatt]

Missed the context of one of omm' posts?

All posts either sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek or mildly mocking-in-a-friendly-way unless otherwise stated. Looking at you, here, Dense. 

[tomtom]

Wet fish tend to get ignored Dense.

Which is of course why he has been so useless as leader of the opposition.

All this 'having to pay 25 to vote isn't democracy' stuff is utter rubbish. If you join or support (£3) the Labour Party you are paying a membership fee to a political organisation, not a democratic system! It's like paying to join a club -the comparisons made in OMM's quote are nuts - and if you think paying £3 means you should have an influence on how the government is being run now then you're deluded.

If you want to see real threats to a democracy turn on news24 right now...

I reckon our democracy is a sham and that you are Tony Blair's love child, I claim my £3 (actually let's make it £25 + 1 soul).

I find your tone and methods of making arguments bullying.

I'll explain a couple of my points further. I didn't make the Wet fish comparison, but as a leader of the opposition I think its pretty appropriate - as he is useless. Media or no media, in PMQ's (like it or not our established method of weekly holding the govt to account) he has been terrrible - missing important moments time after time - during moments when the Tory govt has been very vulnerable. He has completely failed to lead his parliamentary party. He cannot (we wont know but if he could it wouldnt be an issue) even get the support of 20% of them to be on a leadership election. Most concerningly he has a leader 'rating' of -41% amongst the electorate. He will never be PM in our present FPTP system. Even Owen Jones (I think? the Guardian columist and staunch Corbyn supporter) rather begrudgingly admits this.. I believe one of the main aims of the Labour party is to be in Government - as you cannot really change much in opposition. Deep down, do you really think (outside of the Metropolitan left) there is enough support for JC as PM...? So, what is the point?

All I can conclude is that JC is a vanity project for the left wing of the Labour party.

Of course as citizens of the UK we do not have to pay to vote..

RE: Coups - my point was in reference to the (to me) tedious referral to a 'Blairite coup' - I think what has happened in Turkey overnight provides a better example of what coup is really supposed to mean... like much of the language used by many on the left of the LP and (in particular JC supporters) its inappropriate in my view.

[Somebody's Fool]

There are other opportunities to appeal to an electorate than putting on a good show at the farce that is PMQs. Like proposing better policies.

Like the vast majority of his supporters, I'm not a trot. Nor do I think Corbyn is perfect. I'm just someone who wouldn't mind seeing corporations paying some tax, the NHS remaining free for everyone to use, spending on infrastructure to stimulate the economy, fair benefits for disabled people, renationalising energy with a view to developing renewables (or even just subsidising private renewables) and trains that aren't four times as expensive as they are in Europe, despite being subsidised by the taxpayer.

I'm not seeing anyone else offering these.

And as for his leadership qualities, there was never going to be anything he could do to win over the right wing of the PLP or the right wing media. This attack will happen with any genuinely left wing politician. Does pandering to the media mean we can't have socialist politicians anymore? It doesn't bode well for democracy if so.

On a personal level, I like the fact he's a reluctant leader. He's willing to put himself at the front of the party, not for any thirst for power, but because of an unwavering belief his policies will make life better for the majority. And if you were to define leadership qualities by how ardent the hundreds of thousands who do back him are, he must have some appeal.

Anyway, that's enough for now. I don't want to ruin Lee's Saturday.

[a dense loner]

You couldn't possibly ruin it, I'm doing power endurance in the garage to be followed by spag bol and a nice Chilean Chardonnay.