[Will Hunt]

Here I am again. The days get shorter, the sun sinks to the horizon, and I start to wonder how I can toughen up my skin so I can boulder on grit.

I promised I would dabble last year but didn't get round to it. So I typed "antihydral" into Google, resolved to buy some, and it auto-completed to "antihydral cancer". Hmmm. I clicked and found some threads of climbers asking whether antihydral could increase cancer risk but without any real answers.

Antihydral uses methenamine at 13% as its active ingredient. This enters the skin and is partially hydrolysed to formaldehyde which then denatures proteins in your sweat glands. Formaldehyde has been linked to increased cancer risk, but none of the studies I've found give relevant evidence. They're normally looking at industrial/commercial settings involving inhalation or at exposures much greater than putting some cream on your fingers once a week. Or some of them are looking at much lower concentrations - such as those found in cosmetics and other household items.

I appreciate this might seem a bit Daily Mail - wondering whether the likes of eating burnt toast will instantly result in leukemia - but cancer is quite shit so I'd like to understand whether there is an increased risk before diving in. Do any of the medical types hereabouts have any info or thoughts?

[User deactivated.]

This isn't directly applicable to Antihydral, but cancer risk gets a mention in this risk assessment of methenamine by the Scientific Committee on Health and Environmental Risks:

https://ec.europa.eu/health/ph_risk/committees/04_scher/docs/scher_o_054.pdf

"No carcinogenicity studies that meet current standards were performed with
methenamine. From a number of limited life-time studies on rats and mice, all using the
oral route of exposure, there was no indication of a carcinogenic potential. With regard
to the carcinogenicity of formaldehyde, which may be released from methenamine, the
RAR states that “A valid cancer study with administration of formaldehyde via drinking
water to rats did not demonstrate increased tumour incidences in any organ. Thus it is
concluded that the formation of formaldehyde due to the pH dependent cleavage of
methenamine in body compartments should be of no concern with respect to
carcinogenicity“. The study on which this statement is based is the carcinogenicity study
performed by Til et al. (1989), the 2 year drinking water study of formaldehyde in rats
(p. 83 of the RAR)."

[Will Hunt]

Yeah, saw that one. It didn't seem comparable to our usage though. I'm sure there won't be a study out there looking at health risks among grease-fingered weekend warriors, but there are people who regularly use this stuff topically (amputees, some ultra-sweats).

[User deactivated.]

No, its not directly comparable but I took comfort in finding that there was no indication of carcinogenic potential in a study where it was taken orally (in rats). As a layman, my assumption would be the  risk of taking it orally > putting it on my fingertips once a week. Still, my uneducated guess would be that it's not risk free - what drug is?

Interested to read any responses from knowledgeable folk.

[ctodd]

Methenamine is used (rarely due to other more effect options) orally for preventing recurrent urine infections - formaldehyde has antibiotic action in the urine. I've never seen any literature around restrictions on use due to cancer risk (this may exist).

I haven't used AH but given the tiny amounts potentially absorbed via topical intermittent use vs. any oral use, I would certainly do so if I thought it necessary.

Going for a run in Airedale probably has a bigger cancer risk (air quality...). 

[Will Hunt]

Thanks guys. Sounds kosher. Thought I'd ask as this isn't my field.

[dunnyg]

This is where we need an ex supertopo resident to come and say YER GONNA DIE etc.

[Fultonius]

Anyone got anything to say about Rhino performance? My tips are in a sorry state, and I'm not sure if it's dryness, getting too thick and then chunking off or what.

Tried rhino performance a bit in Canada but I can't say I noticed much.

[owensum]

My understanding is that the epidermis is very effective at keeping out toxic chemicals, ludicrously good in fact. So I would say it's unlikely that tiny amounts of a maybe/possible carcinogen on the skin would ever amount to anything. Though I would be careful not to put it on open cuts.

[CapitalistPunter]

Anyone got anything to say about Rhino performance? My tips are in a sorry state, and I'm not sure if it's dryness, getting too thick and then chunking off or what.

Tried rhino performance a bit in Canada but I can't say I noticed much.

Performance is a weaker antihydral, maybe use something like Rhino Repair and make sure to sand any flakey bits.

My skin is quite wet and I swear by using Tip Juice and occasionally spraying some Dry on which is quicker acting. I also like Performance as a weaker alternative.

[Shy Ted]

Not read the entire thread so apologies if I’m repeating what’s already been said. I suffer from soft sweaty skin and have tried pretty much every treatment available, including iontophoresis machine. I’ve settled on using an odour-free antiperspirant called Driclor, which contains aluminium chloride as the active ingredient. As far as I can tell there are no long term detrimental effects to the human body, the compound having been studied for 80 years or so. Skin definitely drier after prolonged use, only downside is skin can get a bit sore but just have one night using climb on as a break. Also, relatively cheap option. One 20ml bottle lasts months and costs about a fiver

[Fultonius]

Anyone got anything to say about Rhino performance? My tips are in a sorry state, and I'm not sure if it's dryness, getting too thick and then chunking off or what.

Tried rhino performance a bit in Canada but I can't say I noticed much.

Performance is a weaker antihydral, maybe use something like Rhino Repair and make sure to sand any flakey bits.

My skin is quite wet and I swear by using Tip Juice and occasionally spraying some Dry on which is quicker acting. I also like Performance as a weaker alternative.

Sorry, I should have been clearer - I'm not super sweaty-tipped, but definitely tend to the "overchalking" rather than cracking/dry. I got the rhino performance to see if some light use would bring my skin into the perfect level of moisture.

I think I used it twice when away, on the days we were sport climbing on Gneiss early in the morning before it got too hot. Not enough testing to confirm.

I was away for a month and did >3500m of granite - my hands were in a sorry state after the bugs! 



So much crack climbing that my palms had got all thick and then crumbled off in the first few weeks back. Last night at TCA a few wee holes started to appear again on my tips - not splits, just the top layer turning into a little white spot, then peeling off leaving gaps.

[Johnny Brown]

What did you do in the Bugs?

[Fultonius]

A fair bit, been meaning to write up some kind of trip report. McTech Arete, Paddle Flake, NE Ridge of Bugaboo, Sunshine Crack and Minotaur were the highlights. Minotaur was amazing, 2 day mission with a lux bivvy halfway up snowpatch.

[mr chaz]

Revival:
Never dabbled with skin products but looking for something to maximise my infrequent climbing days. Skin is almost always the first thing to stop me and I split fairly easily if not careful.
Ideally I’m after something that could be applied a couple of days before or in the morning to dry and toughen the skin, not something that requires constant application and maintenance.
Rhino Skin products worth a go? Not clear from the blurbs which would be better for me, Dry or Performance. Tip juice sounds a bit severe, though maybe that’s what I need for infrequent use?

[yetix]

If you split often I imagine drying agents would mean you split more from what people say. Is your skin fairly dry?

[mr chaz]

Not naturally dry, and not overly sweaty either, just seems to wear through very fast, get very thin and then I get a little hole on the tip or split.

[User deactivated.]

Not naturally dry, and not overly sweaty either, just seems to wear through very fast, get very thin and then I get a little hole on the tip or split.

Based on this description I think Antihydral might work well. I never thought I had particularly moist skin before using it, but now realise just how much better harder dry skin is for most climbing. Using antihydral, I think splits occur at about the same rate in winter, less in summer, and wearing through due to repeated abrasion takes a little longer at any time of year. On small holds I find my skin feels more solid as well, like there's less roll. Some people don't get on well with it but it's probably worth a try. I use standard antihydral once per week, perhaps upping it in summer to every 4 or 5 days. I try to apply it 2 nights before I climb.

It's also worth considering pre-taping tips for any particularly rough/sharp holds and only taking off the tape for proper redpoint attempts if needed.

[mr chaz]

Not naturally dry, and not overly sweaty either, just seems to wear through very fast, get very thin and then I get a little hole on the tip or split.

Based on this description I think Antihydral might work well. I never thought I had particularly moist skin before using it, but now realise just how much better harder dry skin is for most climbing. Using antihydral, I think splits occur at about the same rate in winter, less in summer, and wearing through due to repeated abrasion takes a little longer at any time of year. On small holds I find my skin feels more solid as well, like there's less roll. Some people don't get on well with it but it's probably worth a try. I use standard antihydral once per week, perhaps upping it in summer to every 4 or 5 days. I try to apply it 2 nights before I climb.

It's also worth considering pre-taping tips for any particularly rough/sharp holds and only taking off the tape for proper redpoint attempts if needed.

Cheers Liam. Given I'm only getting out once a month at the moment (at best!) would I still need to be applying it that regularly to get any benefit?

[teestub]

I think it varies from person to person, but I need to use it for at least a couple of weeks to grow some thicker skin. If I put it on when I have thinner skin the day or two before heading out, I just end up with dry thin skin which doesn’t infer much of an advantage!