[route149]

1-4-3 

okay, okay.  I'm convinced.

[route149]

http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/232/

Thanks Ben.  Looks interesting.

Okay, so today I tried Paul B's 1-4-3-4-3-4-3 - three sets of 1 rep leading on each side for the initial session and we'll take it from there.

This exercise feels spot on. so thanks for that Paul B.  Please can someone explain what it is doing physiologically/ muscle-wise in the shoulder?

Cheers

[a dense loner]

i fail to see what this exercise has to do with latch to crimp ability? just jump to a hold open-handed and then crimp it

i had a couple of sessions doing the andy earl hanging then changing to a crimp thing. i thought it was easy, utterly pointless, and above all tweaky. tho i should make it clear that i haven't won any bouldering comps or even 17 pieces of chicken in a raffle

[route149]

i fail to see what this exercise has to do with latch to crimp ability? just jump to a hold open-handed and then crimp it

well, you say that, but it's not that easy, is it? 

If you throw for a tiny hold on a steeply overhanging wall,  latch it in a half-crimp and then your hand peels off before you can get the crimp on and game over, summat's gotta be done in da training room. Either that or patience, which I haven't got, because whatever.

Very interested in da training science, even if I never win even one piece of chicken in a raffle.
(Although I've heard pork scratchings are all the rage at the moment).

[slackline]

Can't remember who said it, but....

The best training for climbing is climbing

That's not to deny that you can make quick and rapid gains in the "training room", but why not just get out on rock and enjoy the whole experience as opposed to focusing on minutiae?

[Vitamin K]

i fail to see what this exercise has to do with latch to crimp ability? just jump to a hold open-handed and then crimp it

Take a look at the Jolly Power site and look at some of the exercises on campus boards - they look like they will train the thing you are looking for. There is a whole host of exercises on here, the majority with some kind of video (just as well as it's all in Italian) which should put you on the right lines.

http://www.jollypower.com/esercizi.html  (click the little drop down box and choose a number...any number and explore)

well, you say that, but it's not that easy, is it?  

If you throw for a tiny hold on a steeply overhanging wall,  latch it in a half-crimp and then your hand peels off before you can get the crimp on and game over, summat's gotta be done in da training room. Either that or patience, which I haven't got, because whatever.

Very interested in da training science, even if I never win even one piece of chicken in a raffle.
(Although I've heard pork scratchings are all the rage at the moment).

[Vitamin K]

...Exercise 49 might do the job you are after.

[Paul B]

Can't remember who said it, but....

The best training for climbing is climbing

That's not to deny that you can make quick and rapid gains in the "training room", but why not just get out on rock and enjoy the whole experience as opposed to focusing on minutiae?

he's right you know... 5 years down the line you'll know it.

[route149]

He's right you know... 5 years down the line you'll know it.

You're making too many assumptions.  How do you know I don't look like this? ?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eggybird/92341023/  (pinched from DFBWGC)

I think whoever said the best training for climbing is climbing had a point, but things have patently moved on from then.  At the time (80s, was it? - I don't know as I wasn't climbing then), a rank punter like me wouldn't have been able to have a go at the occasional crimpy indoor V10 to pass the time.  

Now, climbing beyond one's maximum 'ten tries' grade is part of a strategy for improvement and structured climbing sessions - 'the self-taught climber'  describes this kind of thing as 'threshold bouldering,' for example.  But even if a climber has never read that sort of book, that's what everyone does from time to time - has a go at rank problems that are beyond them and fails.  So to that extent, training is 'natural.'

A few folk might get strong enough by randomly bouldering about but most people I know who can do the stuff are doing some kind of training -  even if they don't recognise it.  I've often noticed a vehement denial, as if training is obscene or as if you're if you say someone's training, you're suggesting they're not 'naturally' talented.  Far from it in many cases.  

But not in mine.  I ain't talented and I need to graft, sweat, fail and stay focussed on tiny, incremental gains from what I call 'training.'

Also, for urban-based folk like me, making gains away from the rock has to matter.  I don't and can't get enough contact time with real rock.   If I didn't have the idea that I could be doing things differently and that I need to constantly experiment to find out how, the whole thing would be pointless.  

[Paul B]

He's right you know... 5 years down the line you'll know it.

You're making too many assumptions.  How do you know I don't look like this? ?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/eggybird/92341023/  (pinched from DFBWGC)

I think whoever said the best training for climbing is climbing had a point, but things have patently moved on from then.  At the time (80s, was it? - I don't know as I wasn't climbing then), a rank punter like me wouldn't have been able to have a go at the occasional crimpy indoor V10 to pass the time.  

Now, climbing beyond one's maximum 'ten tries' grade is part of a strategy for improvement and structured climbing sessions - 'the self-taught climber'  describes this kind of thing as 'threshold bouldering,' for example.  But even if a climber has never read that sort of book, that's what everyone does from time to time - has a go at rank problems that are beyond them and fails.  So to that extent, training is 'natural.'

A few folk might get strong enough by randomly bouldering about but most people I know who can do the stuff are doing some kind of training -  even if they don't recognise it.  I've often noticed a vehement denial, as if training is obscene or as if you're if you say someone's training, you're suggesting they're not 'naturally' talented.  Far from it.  

Also, for urban-based folk like me, making gains away from the rock has to matter.  I don't and can't get enough contact time with real rock.   If I didn't have the idea that I could be doing things differently and that I need to constantly experiment to find out how, the whole point of the thing would be pointless.  

The point is, I've trained for about as long as I can remember and whilst it makes you strong and you do see rapid improvements I think you hit a ceiling quite fast that requires all of the minutae missed by training to be addressed. The only way to do this is to go back to basics and get a f*ck load of mileage under your belt. When you're strong its much harder to accept a spanking on problems regarded as easy and even harder to not use your strength to overpower problems, retro learning technique is f*cking hard. After all when you're operating at your limit you need everything to work together, if you get used to just getting stronger and stronger you might find that the problem you really want to do has a number of subtleties that you just cannot grasp. Yes training is becoming more widespread but the people I know how I'm truly envious of are not the strong ed's of this world who can do 1-5-8 17 times in a row, but people that waltz there way up problems making them look effortless. These people are often much weaker than me but can piss up things I can't touch. Training has a definite place but it seems to me that a lot of people use it as quick fix and ignore the foundation years that give you something to train on. Having said all of that, I ignored most of it and if you're stuck in a city why not?

[slackline]

As an example you cite you're having problems...

If you throw for a tiny hold on a steeply overhanging wall,  latch it in a half-crimp and then your hand peels off before you can get the crimp on and game over, summat's gotta be done in da training room. Either that or patience, which I haven't got, because whatever.

Perhaps you're peeling off because you're core strength isn't good enough to keep you in place whilst you go from half to full crimp?

Focusing on going half to full will improve only that (although there may be some incidental gains in core strength).

Trying the move repeatedly however will work both half to full crimp and core simultaneously (and anything else thats required).  Its all about synergism of the kinaesthetics.  SCIENCE tends to be done in a reductionist manner, but you still have to put those pieces back together and there will be aspects of the whole that can't be explained by the components (i.e. emergent properties).

All that said, I know virtually nothing about training.  Listen to Paul B though, he really does know his shit.

[nik at work]

Fucking hell Paul, I 100% agree. Is this some injury related depression type posting you are displaying here, wavering from the path of power?
(Hope you have a speedy recovery followed by an extended period of full fitness)

Getting strong is (as long as you can face putting the hours in a doing the work) relatively easy* with lots of well proven methods and plans that have been developed or harvested from other disciplines. Technique on the other hand is something of a mysterious dark art that involves the use of words such as "slabification". Lots of training will make you very strong, but lots of climbing will allow you to utilise your strength to best effect.

* Obviously it isn't easy easy but I mean the path to beasty strength is pretty clear, staying the path is harder.

[Paul B]

Fucking hell Paul, I 100% agree. Is this some injury related depression type posting you are displaying here, wavering from the path of power?
(Hope you have a speedy recovery followed by an extended period of full fitness)

Perhaps slightly however its more like a realisation that I maybe should have invested my time differently over the last 4 years and I've made life hard for myself in having to go back to basics (I'm not alone in this and it does work, slowly) to progress rather than doing it the other way round. After all climbing is fun, being injured and backwards progress is not.

[Kingy]

retro learning technique is f*cking hard.  

This might be comparable to trying to learn french at the age of 30 compared to at the age of 8, ie. its fucking hard!

To take the analogy further, foreign language speaking ability will allow you to converse with the natives in foreign countries. This might be compared to the ability to do problems with higher, more varied technical demands than your average power problems ie. using our analogy speak to people from more places rather than just to Brits.

So, the message is, technique is bloody important and we neglect at our peril.

Interestingly enough, climbing on real rock gets your technique honed but bizarrely makes you weak! Training has the opposite effect and gets your power up at the expense of your 'feel' on real rock. Hence the need for a balanced approach and the need to have one session a week at least indoors throughout the summer, to keep power levels topped up (if you are fortunate enough to be able to climb on real rock whenever you feel like it that is).

[Paul B]

Funny, I find rock, even at a much lower volume tends to keep me in fairly good shape. Dependant on base level perhaps? Although I guess you're talking about routes, now they do make you weak!

[Kingy]

Yeah, its probably more true in relation to routes. I was however struck by a comment Paul Reeve made to me saying that after trying Magnetic Fields at Malham for the last few weeks, he had got noticeably weaker and needed to go back indoors to get strong again! This in relation to a route with a grade of font 7c for the hard bit!

[Paul B]

he scared me more saying that after trying Magnetic and feeling powered out, he'd thrash up GBH on a top rope a number of times. Fit git.

[Johnny Brown]

I maybe should have invested my time differently over the last 4 years and I've made life hard for myself in having to go back to basics to progress rather than doing it the other way round. After all climbing is fun, being injured and backwards progress is not.

Jesus Christ. Now I've picked myself back up off the floor, when did this realisation occur? Is it related to the school shutting? Or watching Nat progress? I am allowed to say I told you so now?

[Paul B]

Anyone will progress if they go to Albarracin  On a sad note, she tore an A2 at the tor on Too Hard for Mark Leach which is a bit premature and a little gutting.

You can say whatever you like re: my realisation. I reserve the right to find it funny that you are the inverse of this and still won't accept it. Top move of a certain problem, just not got that lock?...

[Johnny Brown]

Ah well, you've learnt a bit but still not understood. I don't climb to improve or achieve; I climb to climb. Hence no reason to train.

I've never actually tried the move I presume you mean, so I don't know if I have the strength. As Grimer wrote (roughly, from memory) about a different arete not far away, 'it would be nice to have done it, but its just as nice to have it to do'.

[Fiend]

This thread has got all warm and fuzzy 

JB, you climb to climb, yes. But you also like climbing at your limit....and maybe beyond?? And there's always something inspiring and wonderful just that little bit out of reach that makes it worth improving for....??

[Paul B]

oh god lets not go that direction...

[Jaspersharpe]

No let's not. A LOT of sense on this thread. 

[route149]

Anyone will progress if they go to Albarracin 

We're headed there later this year. First timer, though.

[route149]

Just one thing, for Paul B to clear up, now we're talking about the joy of training.  Is it true that:

"Malcolm went from climbing F7C+ to Hubble in one season due to climbing on boards..."

(I'm running for it now...)