[Sloper]

I was talking to the pilot of the Air Ambulance at Stanage yesterday (Hugo was interested in the helicopter rather than a bad case of rubber neck if you're interested) and his view was 'well when the sun's shining at the weekend we know where we'll be flying' was a bit of an eye opener.

Anyway without real stats to back me up (an no real intent to find or analyse the numbers) I find myself drawing to the conclusion that climbingwalls, instructors and top roping (in other words the absence of gradual development) are now a substantial if not the causal factor of the percieved rise in the number of accidents.

The BMC has had some campaigns over the years, check or deck for example but I can't recall ever seeing something along the lines of 'take your time and learn your trade; it's worth it'.

I'm also glad that the MRT and Helicopter turn out as they do, and to any members; nothing personal but I hope never to meet you on duty.

[deacon]

Climbing in the peak i've seen the 'copter 4 or 5 times and every single time was at Stanage. I don't know the stats but when I"ve seen people take a fall or hurt themselves it's rarely a beginner, normally someone on low E grades or boulder problems.

[RopeBoy]

We were walking off when the helicopter arrived followed by a paramedic, a couple of Mountain Rescue Land Rovers and then the ambulance. A certain amount of curiosity made us linger for a moment till the lure of a pint at the Grouse called.

Do you know what happened?

J

[robertostallioni]

You treated yourself to some peanuts?

[slackline]

I fell at Stanage (on off Leviticus) a couple of years ago.  I started off outside and served a gradual "apprenticeship" working through the grades gradually so it can happen to anyone (not to say that the cited factors don't increase the frequency though).

Fractured my left scapula (very painful!) and chipped a bone in my finger (wasn't confirmed until two days later when the swelling hadn't gone down, mainly cause my back/shoulder hurt too much), but was fortunate enough to be able to walk hobble to the car and was driven to the hospital.

Was all fine six weeks later which was just as well as I was going to Lundy!

  that the MRT and air do sterling jobs, still like to avoid needing them in the future though.

[Johnny Brown]

Three landrovers and the helicopter were at Froggatt too yesterday. Busy day for them.

Amongst my friends I reckon it would take something pretty serious before we'd consider 999. Don't know any stats but I suspect a proportion of these call outs for broken ankles could have been avoided by mates carrying to cars.

[Fiend]

The topic title is correct.

An increasing and disturbing proportion of climbing accidents are people decking out of safe, easy climbs, when their gear rips. Or, better yet, when abseil anchors fail at Stanage (!), as happened the other week.

Read the Edale / Buxton / Derby MRT callout reports and then consider the routes that typically get mentioned.

I've seen enough shockingly bad gear placing ability (and attitudes) from climbers, including some very experienced ones. It is a very worthy topic to explore and issue to try to resolve, perhaps more out of sympathy for the MRT workload than some of the climbers involved.

[dave]

we've all made gear fuckups when we started out, just that the nature of climbing is such that 95% of technical gear fuckups go unnoticed because you generally don't fall off.

[Sloper]

That's true Dave, but my anecdotal experience is that the number of incidents is increasing significantly and substantially faster than the number of climbers.

Perhaps part of the problem is the demise of clubs, where one would benefit from the experience of more mature seasoned climbers; due to increasing affluence which allows car ownership purchase of gear etc.

Also perhaps part of the problem is the preponderance of camming devices and a mistaken belief in their infallible nature?

Anyway, let's hope all those that fell fully recover and get back on the rock.

[tomtom]

From what I see at crags etc.. I think people are actually better informed and trained than they were when I started in the early 90's. Then (before indoor walls were prevalent) it was a case of turn up - this is how you belay and shout 'safe' etc.. Now at walls I've been to unless you can prove you are experienced (OK this is normally the figure of 8 question) you have to undertake some sort of induction - and quite a few people I have got to know at the wall, would not consider leading until they have had some sort of 'leader training' which would have been near on unheard of when I started... for what its worth I think climbing in a loosely supervised area (a wall) teaches people better habits than not. Of course its no substitute for learning how to place gear etc.. but basic ropework, belaying etc..

I was also up at the cliff the other week and bumped into some friends from Leeds Mountaineering club (that I'd not seen for ages) and they were there with an outdoor leader training eve for people in the club....

So I think its so much that people are worse trained due to indoor climbing etc.. but just that there are more people out there climbing! Or maybe there are more idots out there, but I also think there is more training and more possibility to be trained than there was 15-20 years ago...

Just my tuppence worth...

ps. RobertoStallioni - you deserve some waddage for being so quick witted 

[SA Chris]

ps. RobertoStallioni - you deserve some waddage for being so quick witted 

Done already.

[tc]

Do you know what happened?

J

At Stanage, yes. I was there for a quick nostalgia trip over the weekend and it reminded me why I used to avoid the place when it was crowded. The guy who the helicopter came for was "A fucking accident waiting to happen" according to our (reliable) source. We met one of his mates on Sunday and if his belaying was anything to go by I'm surprised there wasn't another near-death event. A top candidate for a Darwin Award, we reckoned.

[Fultonius]

Well, in 7 years of rock climbing in Scotland, I've never seen a MR team out to help injured climbers, or seen the helicopters picking folk up. (I have in winter, but I'm assuming we're talking about rock climbing, not winter.

Maybe it's just the sheer number of climbers in the honeypots?

I know you say you're not that interested in the stats, but surely you can't make sweeping statements like that without lookign at the stats.

We need some SCIENCE!

[slackline]

In support of Sloper's hypothesis I have a friend who started climbing with me (indoors) and I started taking outdoors.  I now don't climb (roped, or indeed boulder much) with him as out at Laddow last year I turned round after having clipped my first gear to see he was nonchantly gazing off down the valley.....not holding the rope (stern words were had, but I decided there and then that I wasn't going to be doing anything roped with him again).

He's since purchased his own rack and has been going out with a friend of his (with less experience than him!) and the other day he was recounting how he'd been on some route at Stanage (about HS/VS I think, he did tell me what route it was, but I've forgotten) and he couldn't work the final moves out so took a rest on his gear....which promptly popped out shattering the rock.  He plummeted to the ground, then rolled down the hill, fortunately he wasn't injured, but unfortunately a) he damaged the rock (suggesting his gear placement was bad); b) he decided on the back of this he needed more gear so has got himself some cams.

The main problem as I see it is that whilst he can scrape his way up 6b's indoors I was pointing him at easy routes such as HD/VD/S max but he now seems to have jumped several grades because he could follow me up them on top-rope, yet he doesn't have the experience of placing gear that is required.  The fact that he always seems to be at his limit and doesn't climb in a particularly controlled manner probably doesn't help much either.

[Will Hunt]

One thing that should probably be thought about is how the MRT has changed over the time that is being spoken about. This is something I don't know a great deal about but perhaps some of the older membes could shed some light? When did the Air Ambulance really take off? I know from "Games Climbers Play" that MRT has been going on a while but how long has it been the organisation that we recognise today? Are we seeing more rescues going on as a combined factor of a bigger, more visual, MRT and the presence of "idiots".

I think the point about the attitude of beginners may be right, however I think it's a certain type of beginner. The people I climb with are generally young like me and do it for the enjoyment. I have known people in the past who don't really like climbing but who like the image of being a climber (can't think why). It is these people who tend to grade chase the most (nothing wrong with that, just make sure you're sensible and not biting off more than you can chew) in their attempt to be X-CORE!!!11one. Many of the newbies I know are generally wary of leading and the higher grades. This is an attitude which I would like to more relaxed a little but which I guess is healthy in the formative time.

I also think it is fairly naive to call anybody who decks out an "idiot". Never assume that climbing is safe. You can be top roping, seconding, bouldering, anything and the shit can hit the fan. Just look at the recent incident at Falcon Crag. Leader stood on the belay ledge, second pulls up onto ledge. Ledge crumbles and falls. Leader remains on his anchor, ropes get cut and second hits the scree. Nothing wrong with what they did, just plain unlucky. Could have happened to anybody. Experienced leaders can still kick out gear. Rock can still snap. Belayers can not do their job properly. I have seen all of these things happen. Some with consequences that lead to the air ambulance coming out. Incidentally in the Leeds Uni Club Bullshit Book that tomtom recently sent me there are plenty of accounts of climbers in the '80s having accidents including one girl at Caley who broke her pelvis (admittedly on her second lead).

When I had my accident I thought I'd have a wee sit then walk off. It became increasingly apparent that I couldn't straighten my leg without an enormous amount of pain so eventually, as it was getting dark, we called the pros. Don't forget that they're there for a reason. If you do need them then call them up, they are happy to help so long as its not just a twisted ankle. They're all outdoor enthusiasts and do the work voluntarily. Apparently I lost "an impressive amount of blood" and had I waited longer to make the call I could have lost too much and/or made the rescue harder with it being darker.

[Stubbs]

Have you ever actually written about your incident Will?  I think one of the most positive things to come out of the 'health and safety culture' is the sharing of details of incidents and their route causes so that similar situations may be avoided in future.  Obviously this reporting adds to the perceived (or real) increase in the number of incidents, especially the endless 'accident at ******' topics on UKC.  The majority of climbers in the UK are climbing in the lower grades on trad, so statistically it is more likely that these are the routes the incidents are going to occur on, rather than 'climber picked up by air ambulance after breaking ankle falling off Marbelous...' etc.

[magpie]

Will did a write up of his accident in his blog, should still be there (link in his signature), I'd link for you but blogs are banned during work hours.

[Will Hunt]

Check the blog.

In all honestly I don't know why my accident happened. In my mind the nut I placed was bomber and I can't see how it pulled out. I've fallen on gear before and been fine plenty of times. I intend to abseil down the route and inspect the placement from above rather than below and see if that can shed any light on the situation. I believe there are two possibilities which I shan't go into here.