[travs]

Anybody know the difference between middleman and middleman direct at secret garden?

[dave]

middleman direct goes direct, middleman doesn't?

[Johnny Brown]

I think the direct eliminates holds on the left that make the original solution easier.

[cofe]

didn't realise there was a middleman direct. do you mean left-hand man direct?

[dave]

I think the direct eliminates holds on the left that make the original solution easier.

you mean right, shirley?

[cofe]

that's why i thought LH man.

[Johnny Brown]

I don't think so, no.

[dave]

you must be eliminating some holds on the right or you'd be on dick williams/middleman. left hand man direct is left right of middleman. I think the confusion arises since if you're strong enough, and in good enough nick, its possible to climb any line on this wall at about 7c+ by virtue of the big foot ledge. I think this came up when the last guide was being written, turned out adam wood, mick adams and ru and climbed about 3000 different variations on here.

[Johnny Brown]

you must be eliminating some holds on the right or you'd be on dick williams/middleman.

Insert 'left' ditto left hand man.

left hand man direct is left right of middleman

Eh?

[cofe]

it's genius how almost this exact same discussion pops up about once a year. 

[travs]

I'm only asking because of the 7/8's list posted by Jonboy. On there it quotes Middleman as 7C and a Dan Varian 'direct' variant at 8a, so what's the take?

[dave]

you must be eliminating some holds on the right or you'd be on dick williams/middleman.

Insert 'left' ditto left hand man.

left hand man direct is left right of middleman

Eh?

alright its right left, right? Its time I left.

[SA Chris]

riiiiiight

[Bonjoy]

To be honest I don't understand the lines on that face, i just wrote down what others told me and what was in Ru's book. BTW the direct variant is not Dan's it's Adam Wood's

[Ru]

AFAIK there are two problems that have been claimed up the main face that don't use any holds on the arete. My line (LHM direct) and Adams, done shortly after. They both use essentially the same holds, but Adam used some of them with his left hand that I used with my right so his solution climbed the wall a bit more centrally. There is only really one line up the face that can be done in a few ways, unless you use the daft "once you start the sequence you can't stop, therefore it's not an eliminate" argument, which can't be right otherwise all the dynos at Stoney aren't eliminates either. To stop the confusion, next time round I think I'll change the name of LHM direct to something else so it's not confused with LHM.

[cofe]

'Middleman Left-Hand'?

[dave]

middlehand dick? lefthand man righthand?

[Andy B]

i thought that the descriptions in Ru's guide were perfectly clear, and that all the problems took fairly logical lines [the original sequence of lefthand man excepted], none of the problems are eliminates, and all are good quality [same exception] . If in doubt just read the guide. I think alot of the confusion comes from the same problem being claimed under the names Left Hand Man Direct and Middle Man, but then a different problem [the rising traverse] being in the guide also under the name Middle Man, as well as people confusing Left Hand Man original sequence with Left Hand Man Direct.

To stop the confusion, next time round I think I'll change the name of LHM direct to something else so it's not confused with LHM.

I would have thought that changing names between guides would just add to the confusion. I would just leave out the mention of the original sequence to LHM [poor sequences on other problems don't get this treatment], and the other names will become more established with time as people forget all the competing claims.

[ferret]

ok attempt to clarify....if possible

middle man - starts up dick william and traverses left to finish up the middle of the wall......i think

middle man direct starts in the middle of the wall and goes more or less straight up, essentially from the shelf take the right hand hold of lhm with the left hand (omg thats complete jibberish but also kinda true) and move up n slightly right to slopers, at some point a hard "foot drag" along the ledge leads to a hard lock to the lh obvious slopey pinch in the groove/runnel (u use the left side of this for the rh on lhm) now make a crux lock off to t decent kinda flat slopey slot, then head uo straight up via easier climbing.

not as convoluted as it sounds in this discription

as far as grading goes it mike thought 8a+ till i found a new sequence, may only be 7c+ (in the peak! ) but its a typical hard one to grade feels 7c+ if u hav the body positions down and friction is excellent if its not felt 8a so maybe 7c+/8a i dunno, or maybe dan has beta for it to be 7c....

hope this helps

[ferret]

also.. ru 

[Andy B]

It shouldn't be as hard as this. It's not that complex.

There are four ways up this wall:

The left arete (Left Hand Man)

The right arete (Dick Williams)

The diagonal line from the bottom of the right arete to the top of the left (Middle Man)

Straight up the middle (what you did in Winter Sessions, Ferret). This is in Ru's guide as Left Hand Man Direct, and what Ferret has described above as Middle Man Direct.

Left Hand Man Direct and Middle Man Direct are the same problem.