[cofe]

i wouldn't worry about it word. the line is pretty clear with remergence and more importantly it has been documented as such for ages. it's less clear with desparate, hence the confusion.

[Johnny Brown]

What? The line is painfully clear with Desparete - its the top of the crag.

[T_B]

What? The line is painfully clear with Desparete - its the top of the crag.

Agreed! Can you imagine it in Font. You wouldn't top out half the problems if you pulled the "it's scary" card!

P.S. I've never ticked Desperate as I remember getting to the break/jug and wimping out

[cofe]

What? The line is painfully clear with Desparete - its the top of the crag.

i didn't say i was confused sugar tits. i know where i need to finish if i want to climb it.

[cowboyhat]

Come on Ted, you don't need the opinions of what the forum users as to whether or not you feel like you've ticked the problem.
To be honest it sounds like you feel you haven't done it, where as people like dense have no quarms with ticking what they see to be the hard climbing.
Personally I always like to top out or do all the obvious moves etc.. before I know I've done the problem (or tick it if you will)
each to their own
yes its high, scrittly and dangerous, but thats half the fun sometimes

[dave]

Didn't this happen to a certain regular poster on here, on Chimes at the Tor???!!

If the rumour is true, I heard the caller of the Lime said he could have it?..........

when you say "this" you need to be more specific. A certain regular poster didn't get to a jug above which is eaisier climbing, fall off on the easy climbing and take the tick for the route which finished higher than he fell. neither did a certain regular poster miss out any starting moves.

a certain regular poster did get to the jug at the end of an essentially unnamed and unlisted popular short version of a longer route, a non-tick anyway, (as opposed to Chimes Of Freedom, the "full" route, which he never attempted), and hung there on that soaking wet jug for 5 minutes (that being an actual 5 minutes, not a figure of speach) trying to get a quickdraw into the bolt a few feet above and to clip it, and fell off in the process.

[Andy Harris]

Chimes is a bit unique in that it has a complex history. Originally it was climbed as Chimes of Freedom traversing left in the top scoop.

The shorter version to the bolt above the lip “chimes” became a work out route especially when combined with the weedkiller traverse. There was no value in continuing as the power endurance benefit had been taken.

The original COF had a particularly nasty finishing move leftwards which lots of people didn’t like and somebody rebolted an alternative finish with easier moves but slightly longer. Ste Mac then added the further extension.

Funnily enough until a few years ago I had only climbed chimes & the weedkiller extension. I had never considered I’d climbed COF as I’d never got to the higher belay. I opted for the original finish as to me that’s COF whereas the right hand finish is a kind of COF 2.

So I guess a-b varies depending on whether you’re climbing chimes, COF, COF 2 or the extension.

As for whether you need to clip a  last bolt / belay to take a tick. As far as I know there are no rules that say you have to clip a belay / bolt / set up a  belay on a trad route to complete a climb. You can jump off as people do even though I would normally reserve this for steep routes. As long as you top out or are on the final hold in control. Now that doesn’t mean you can slap the final jug hold it for 0.5seconds and claim the tick. You should get the final holds, hold them in control (that’s the personal unquantifiable bit).

Specifically on chimes, if you match the jugs it’s ticked. I normally jump off from here is as it’s easier than clipping, lowering off and stripping the kit or setting it up for another lap.

On something like Caviar you've done the route when you're stood on the shelf not on the jugs below, clip or don't clip the belay. Same for most Rubicon routes as they finsih on a ledge. Now when people start to extend belays so they can clip from lower moves and take the tick without getting to the finishing holds that's dubious.

[Kingy]

The original COF had a particularly nasty finishing move leftwards which lots of people didn’t like and somebody rebolted an alternative finish with easier moves but slightly longer.

I was under the impression that holds snapped on this original leftwards finish rendering it much harder (ppl used to say it was up to 8b) and that was one of the reasons why the alternative finish was bolted. Certainly when I did Short Chimes in 2002, ppl were saying that the top wall was now 'impossible' due to broken holds (this is before the alternative finish was conceived).

[north_country_boy]

Interesting History about COF.

Not sure I agree with the A-B finish being unclear, hard section, big jugs, clip chain, lower off. Each to their own I suppose regarding clipping the chains..... I'm sure ,like with Desperate, there are people on either side of the fence...

I suppose the bigger issue with it is people not clipping the third bolt en-route...

[Kingy]

I suppose the bigger issue with it is people not clipping the third bolt en-route...

Oh no, not that old chesnut! I won't be losing any sleep... 

[dave]

on short chimes if you're not clipping the third bolt then its not a lead really, its a toprope except for the last 4 moves. Its not a hard clip anyway. I don't know how i'd feel on COF with the 3rd bolt clipped, since you've still got to clip half a dozen bolts afterwards, maybe its less of an issue.

the "rule", if you can call it that, which i always understood on peak limestone is that generally having the first 2 bolts clipped on a redpoint was fair game, unless there were no other bolts to clip afterwards (i.e. you wouldn't no salar or TOTBB with both bolts clipped). There's also the issue of some bolts not being meant for the lead, working bolts etc. and also routes like caviar where as far as I understand the position of the original 1st bolt is roughly where the second bolt is now, and the current first bolt is for working (pre-mat days?), hence most people have the first 2 (or just the second) bolt clipped on caviar.

[Kingy]

I agree with what you say Dave apart from:

the "rule", if you can call it that, which i always understood on peak limestone is that generally having the first 2 bolts clipped on a redpoint was fair game, unless there were no other bolts to clip afterwards (i.e. you wouldn't no salar or TOTBB with both bolts clipped).

I don't think there is any special 'rule' for peak limestone. Anywhere in the world, if you pre-clip a bolt that you would not be capable of downclimbing from then you are not doing a valid ascent, whether its the 2nd or 5th. I don't see the logic in not permitting the 2nd to be clipped if there are only 2 bolts on the route. Why is this not allowed? The fact that you only have the belay to clip is surely a non-issue, who cares if you didn't actually clip any bolts on lead as long as you are capable of downclimbing from the highest one?

There's also the issue of some bolts not being meant for the lead, working bolts etc. and also routes like caviar where as far as I understand the position of the original 1st bolt is roughly where the second bolt is now, and the current first bolt is for working (pre-mat days?), hence most people have the first 2 (or just the second) bolt clipped on caviar.

If a bolt is a working bolt/ not meant for lead, there is no special rule I don't think. If you can't downclimb from it, don't have it pre-clipped, its as simple as that. With Caviar, having the 2nd pre-clipped is allowed as if you are capable of getting up there, then surely you can reverse a couple of moves and jump off.

[JohnM]

I heard a rule (possibly adopted in the Frankenjura) that you can clip the first two bolts on a red point attempt if you have prooved previousley that you have the physical capability of clipping that second bolt on lead!  As for reaching the top of a sport route I have always tried to clip the lower off in control before being taken on the rope.  I took this self applied rule too far the other day desperately trying to clip a second quick draw in control while shaking and seriousley pumped before being taken on the rope.  This seems a bit silly in hindsight! 

[dave]

I agree with what you say Dave apart from:

the "rule", if you can call it that, which i always understood on peak limestone is that generally having the first 2 bolts clipped on a redpoint was fair game, unless there were no other bolts to clip afterwards (i.e. you wouldn't no salar or TOTBB with both bolts clipped).

I don't think there is any special 'rule' for peak limestone. Anywhere in the world, if you pre-clip a bolt that you would not be capable of downclimbing from then you are not doing a valid ascent, whether its the 2nd or 5th. I don't see the logic in not permitting the 2nd to be clipped if there are only 2 bolts on the route. Why is this not allowed? The fact that you only have the belay to clip is surely a non-issue, who cares if you didn't actually clip any bolts on lead as long as you are capable of downclimbing from the highest one?

There's also the issue of some bolts not being meant for the lead, working bolts etc. and also routes like caviar where as far as I understand the position of the original 1st bolt is roughly where the second bolt is now, and the current first bolt is for working (pre-mat days?), hence most people have the first 2 (or just the second) bolt clipped on caviar.

If a bolt is a working bolt/ not meant for lead, there is no special rule I don't think. If you can't downclimb from it, don't have it pre-clipped, its as simple as that. With Caviar, having the 2nd pre-clipped is allowed as if you are capable of getting up there, then surely you can reverse a couple of moves and jump off.

ted, a few years ago I was just getting into trying to do some harder sport routes, I had worked This Is The Sea at the cornice. Rupert was belaying me and I was wondering wether it was kosher to have the first 2 bolts clipped as they are very close together, ru said "you can tell you've not done many peak sport routes if you're worried about having 2 bolts clipped".

And another example ted, say you've got a route where clipping the first bolt is impossible but since its the first bolt it doens't matter, since everyone has it clipped. so you're about to go for the redpoint and I turn up one day and decide I would like a lower "working" bolt in, so place one. Now the impossible clip is now the second bolt on the route, which given your logic you have to clip on the lead if you want the tick. I hope this example illustrates how your stance on this is a bit at odds with reality - next you'll be saying that you've got to clip every bolt on the line to tick the route! I've also got photos of you trying caviar with the first 2 bolts clipped, i don't remember you doing any downclimbing for posterity.....

Also, downclimbing a few moves and jumping off isn't the same as downclimbing. technically it'd be possible to jump off and survive from the 3rd of 4th bolt of caviar, but that doesn't mean that if you do so you can lead it with all the first 3/4 bolts clipped.

and lets not forget that there's a bg difference between being theoretically able to downclimb from a point, and being able to actually downclimb from that point and still being able to make a sucessful lead in the same session.

[Kingy]

OK perhaps I am not quite as familiar with the micro-ethics of peak limestone as you. I'll take your word for that. I didn't intend to downclimb Caviar start on that day or any other, I would rather do more useful things like maybe another route on the same day. I reckon there might be a lot of people who did not do the Mecca downclimb from the second bolt on the day they redpointed it so I don't think it is an essential thing, in fact I have never heard of anybody doing the Mecca downclimb or seen it done but I have seen a lot of redpoints attempts of this route! I respect people who do the downclimb though. Its each to their own really, as long as we say what we have done.

I intend to try Waddage with only the second preclipped to rectify when I had the third pre-clipped on Chimes which is a flawed ascent according to our ethical code. That's what everybody trying the route at the time was doing and what I was told to do in 2002 but I appreciate that people climb it differently and more ethically now. Anyway, congrats on your baby dude. See you at Rubbercon again no doubt!

[ferret]

as pointed out you can comfortably bridge the groove at the top of desperate, hence its very easy to brush some chalk into the holds. i found once i did this that the scrittle was easily removed and the climbing was very easy (v3ish?) only a tiny bit of effort to complete a truly beautiful line which imho obviously finishes at the top