[Kingy]

I have searched the archives and found a few refs to this but nothing directly concerning what to do on the Desparete topout.

Basically, if the top bit is bouldering then I'm out! You could easily break a leg as the landing is sloping and you're over 15 foot up when you pull onto the upper arete after gaining the big hold after all the hard climbing. So, like a big Jessie, I bridged into the chimney on the right after touching the next break above. I guess you could say you climbed an E4 7a if you went all the way but for me this is far more dangerous than the WSS topout. I wonder if there is any value in flagging this up in the next guide? I agree that this is 7b as per the new definitive list on Vimeo.

[dave]

i heard Steve McModest bottled off the topout too.

[a dense loner]

i bridged at the top after thinking i was going to die on scrittle, so did huffy. i have took the tick with absolutely no quarms confident that i can do a 4b mantle when it's clean, what's more i don't give a fuck what percy or johnny say.
i also took the tick for a 7a in font that had a wet through top out of 3a after doing the crux moves on razors and holding the flat top with both hands.
i am not a bad man.

[Somebody's Fool]

If this top out is 'after all the hard climbing', then why are people still bottling it? Could it be perhaps because it's closer to 6a than 4b?

Desparete's biggest problem is it's escapability, and given the option it's not surprising people bridge out. I know i did a couple of times before I 'did it.'

[Ru]

You could easily break a leg as the landing is sloping and you're over 15 foot up when you pull onto the upper arete after gaining the big hold after all the hard climbing.... I wonder if there is any value in flagging this up in the next guide?

Something along the lines of:

"Warning: the top out of this boulder is just as high as it looks from the floor and should you fall, the landing is probably just as bad as it looks."

[Kingy]

I think it would be useful to have an indication of what you have to do to get the bouldering tick. I.e. is that hollow feeling of copping out unwarranted? Is it a route to the top or is it legit for the boulderer to bridge into the chimney?

I guess with a full spotting team and multiple pads it might be OK but I'm not sure I would chance it to be honest!

[account_inactive]

You could easily break a leg as the landing is sloping and you're over 15 foot up when you pull onto the upper arete after gaining the big hold after all the hard climbing.... I wonder if there is any value in flagging this up in the next guide?

Something along the lines of:

"Warning: the top out of this boulder is just as high as it looks from the floor and should you fall, the landing is probably just as bad as it looks."

Your work here is done Ru

[Jim]

Come on Ted, you don't need the opinions of what the forum users as to whether or not you feel like you've ticked the problem.
To be honest it sounds like you feel you haven't done it, where as people like dense have no quarms with ticking what they see to be the hard climbing.
Personally I always like to top out or do all the obvious moves etc.. before I know I've done the problem (or tick it if you will)
each to their own
yes its high, scrittly and dangerous, but thats half the fun sometimes

[Gus]

This felt like a total gift to me at 7b+, or even at 7b to be honest, so I assume that this is because the top out is a bit spicy, but surely an integral part of the problem to make it complete?

beta that I used for the top was:
span left to big hold in breakm right heel or toe on the jug that you slap to, rock over to good high edges up and right (if these holds feel bad then you're on the wrong ones) match edges (they are a bit scrittly to be fair, and get the huge, juggy top.

Awesome climbing though, the whole problem in general is has similar climbing to the nearby Nosferatu, and would be a good warm up for that I reckons, although that defo aint a boulder prob!!

In reply to Dense: Yes you are! how's dyno club without the leek contingent?

[Andy Harris]

Have to say all this recent talk of not toping out because it’s snowy, wet, too high etc etc is a bit worrying. In my book you need to top out (if indeed the problem is a top out) and if you can’t due to some other factor you come back at a  later date and finish it off. Imagine if some guy just missed out on a  world record running time then said “but I was slowing down at the end so I would have broken the record and I’m going to take it.”

WSS is a great example. If you do the hard bit at the bottom you have ticked some classic moves but not WSS, you’ve ticked out the start of WSS. Sounds like Desparete is similar? I’m guessing it’s a lot less gripping than circa the days of a dozen mats.

This then extends itself in to the even more worrying practice of missing out a few moves at the beginning or end of a problem because “they’re easy” and it doesn’t affect the grade. No, it starts there and finishes there so you need to do that for the tick. Some things I’ve heard / seen:
-   persons starting staminaband 3-4 moves in
-   starting la proue in cresciano 1 move in
-   starting mushroom roof in hueco missing the whole original traverse out
-   generally missing out easy starting bits of problems and taking half a grade less.
-   sometimes this is done out of a lack of knowledge rather than cheating / short changing yourself quickly becomes the norm.

OK it’s a route but the worst example I’ve seen was a top german climber who crusied the hard bit of a bouldery 8b route and the moment he hit the 1st jug he started to shake violently and lose all composure. He layed one on for the next jug, clipped the bolt & claimed the tick. He forgot to do the 6c bit at the top which was “really easy” as he’d have surely fallen off.

Standards seem to be sipping in search of the mighty grade and the quality ascent of old seems to be biting the bullet

[slackline]

This then extends itself in to the even more worrying practice of missing out a few moves at the beginning or end of a problem because “they’re easy” and it doesn’t affect the grade. No, it starts there and finishes there so you need to do that for the tick. Some things I’ve heard / seen:
-   persons starting staminaband 3-4 moves in
-   starting la proue in cresciano 1 move in
-   starting mushroom roof in hueco missing the whole original traverse out
-   generally missing out easy starting bits of problems and taking half a grade less.
-   sometimes this is done out of a lack of knowledge rather than cheating / short changing yourself quickly becomes the norm.

OK it’s a route but the worst example I’ve seen was a top german climber who crusied the hard bit of a bouldery 8b route and the moment he hit the 1st jug he started to shake violently and lose all composure. He layed one on for the next jug, clipped the bolt & claimed the tick. He forgot to do the 6c bit at the top which was “really easy” as he’d have surely fallen off.

Standards seem to be sipping in search of the mighty grade and the quality ascent of old seems to be biting the bullet

Some thoughts on this on a specific problem at Font (Surplomb de la Mee) from the man in the forest.

[Jaspersharpe]

OK it’s a route but the worst example I’ve seen was a top german climber who crusied the hard bit of a bouldery 8b route and the moment he hit the 1st jug he started to shake violently and lose all composure. He layed one on for the next jug, clipped the bolt & claimed the tick. He forgot to do the 6c bit at the top which was “really easy” as he’d have surely fallen off.

I did that on Reve on a filthy hot day when me and Simon Scully decided it would be a good idea to try it. After a few goes I got through the start and up to the next clip where the hard climbing is over. I was sweating like a dog and as I pulled the rope up to clip my fingers started greasing out of the pocket. As you could hit the ground from there I fumbled about for a bit trying to reverse to chalk up etc before doing the sensible thing and grabbing the quickdraw.

 

Of course I didn't take the tick even though it's about 6b to the top from there.

Standards seem to be sipping in search of the mighty grade and the quality ascent of old seems to be biting the bullet

Some of those examples do sound very dodgy but I don't think it's anything new Andy. There have always been unscrupulous characters willing to take the "Good As" tick. It's the old chestnut about honesty - with yourself and others - as you know yourself what constitutes a tick and what doesn't.

Some thoughts on this on a specific problem at Font (Surplomb de la Mee) from the man in the forest.

Nah that's just the other old chestnut of Ben using a duff sequence but being strong enough to still think it's the easiest way anyway. 

[north_country_boy]

Didn't this happen to a certain regular poster on here, on Chimes at the Tor???!!

If the rumour is true, I heard the caller of the Lime said he could have it?..........

[Stubbs]

"Andy could see every misdemeanour at every crag in the peak district from his lovely new high horse"



 

[craic-head]

Well said Andy.
Is feeling the need to qualify the details of an ascent to people not an indication that there might be niggling doubts about it in your own mind?

[a dense loner]

my feeling on topping out the scrittle on desparete is still the same. i broke a few bones and generally messed myself up a fair few years ago topping out on scrittle, suffice to say i was eating through a straw for 7 wks. when people ask me about the problem i tell them what i've done

[Plattsy]

For me a problem is from A to B. Misunderstanding/not knowing where A and B are is forgiveable but once known for sure there is no excuse. If you don't start from A and finish at B then you haven't done the problem/route.

I often will bottle a scrittly (or just a generally scary) top out and not take the tick. Just one of those things. Doesn't bother me in the slightest. Plenty more fish in the sea.

ps. I know nothing about Desparete.

[Plattsy]

pps - Got a friend who'll take a tick (usually indoors so it doesn't really count) for successfully completeing the problem in two halves.

Erm, yeah well done.

[jfw]

would you tick remergence  if you hadn't topped it out? (does it depend if you have a bouldering guide or routes guide with you?)

[Plattsy]

would you tick remergence  if you hadn't topped it out? (does it depend if you have a bouldering guide or routes guide with you?)

I suppose it does to a degree. If I was routing and wanted to climb remergence and take an E4 tick. Then I would have to top out.

If I was bouldering and wanted to climb the start to remergence and take the v4 tick I would probably refer to the guide/person next to me/my mind and work out where there is a logical place the boulder problem start finishes and the route continues.

My logic is probably flawed but there you go.

[slackline]

I suppose it does to a degree. If I was routing and wanted to climb remergence and take an E4 tick. Then I would have to top out.

If I was bouldering and wanted to climb the start to remergence and take the v4 tick I would probably refer to the guide/person next to me/my mind and work out where there is a logical place the boulder problem start finishes and the route continues.

My logic is probably flawed but there you go.

Ergo its completely arbitrary whether you top out or not and your stance that topouts are required to validate an ascent is dependent on whether you're ticking the arbitrary placement of point B that you are trying to reach from point A.

In a similar vein there is this pic on flickr that shows some bolts on grit (presumably in a quarry, linked, so if you're bothered go and read the text that accompanies the picture)....



Incidentally (or not) the same person has the following pick of a forum regular on their stream which I thought was quite nicely composed/shot.  Wouldn't fancy the landing myself (again linked if you want to look at higher res version)...

[Jaspersharpe]

Dunno about your logic but your choice of grading system is completely flawed.

[Plattsy]

I suppose it does to a degree. If I was routing and wanted to climb remergence and take an E4 tick. Then I would have to top out.

If I was bouldering and wanted to climb the start to remergence and take the v4 tick I would probably refer to the guide/person next to me/my mind and work out where there is a logical place the boulder problem start finishes and the route continues.

My logic is probably flawed but there you go.

Ergo its completely arbitrary whether you top out or not and your stance that topouts are required to validate an ascent is dependent on whether you're ticking the arbitrary placement of point B that you are trying to reach from point A.

Not sure I understand that.

On the bolted grit route. I don't know it but I guess I'd have voted for it to be left to nature. Afterall there is plenty of other rock to climb.

Dunno about your logic but your choice of grading system is completely flawed.

Took the grades from UKC so that figures.

[slackline]

For me a problem is from A to B. Misunderstanding/not knowing where A and B are is forgiveable but once known for sure there is no excuse. If you don't start from A and finish at B then you haven't done the problem/route.

Now I should point out that I don't know the history of Remergence, but I guess it was a route first and the boulder-problem (i.e. not topping out) came afterwards.

Thus in your above proposition B is topping out the route (assuming that my guess as to the history of the route/problem is correct).  As you say its forgiveable to not do so if one is ignorant, but you then go on to say...

If I was bouldering and wanted to climb the start to remergence and take the v4 tick I would probably refer to the guide/person next to me/my mind and work out where there is a logical place the boulder problem start finishes and the route continues.

..so you've essentially moved the position of B to coincide with your goals at the time of trying the route/problem (i.e. "If I was bouldering and wanted to climb the start to remergence...").  In a similar vein whether to top-out Desparate is a personal choice for the individual.  Some see B to be the point at which the hard climbing ends, whilst others see it as topping out through the scrittle.

Hence why I stated its arbitrary whether you top-out or not.  Each to their own really.

[Plattsy]

Each to their own really.

and thanks for explaining.

Like I said I don't know Desparete and vaguely know Remergence.

As far as I remember/gleamed from UKC:-

Remergence is a route and Remergence Start the boulder problem. If there is distinction between the two then I would assume there is a difference. I would say point B has moved in this respect.

Desparete it would appear to be a route and highball boulder problem. This again is slightly different. I wouldn't give myself the tick if I traversed off whether I was climbing it as a route or a highball problem. Point B is in the same place on this one as far as I can see (I may be wrong. If so point B can be moved).

These are just my thoughts and are not aimed at anyone.

[cofe]

i wouldn't worry about it word. the line is pretty clear with remergence and more importantly it has been documented as such for ages. it's less clear with desparate, hence the confusion.

[Johnny Brown]

What? The line is painfully clear with Desparete - its the top of the crag.

[T_B]

What? The line is painfully clear with Desparete - its the top of the crag.

Agreed! Can you imagine it in Font. You wouldn't top out half the problems if you pulled the "it's scary" card!

P.S. I've never ticked Desperate as I remember getting to the break/jug and wimping out

[cofe]

What? The line is painfully clear with Desparete - its the top of the crag.

i didn't say i was confused sugar tits. i know where i need to finish if i want to climb it.

[cowboyhat]

Come on Ted, you don't need the opinions of what the forum users as to whether or not you feel like you've ticked the problem.
To be honest it sounds like you feel you haven't done it, where as people like dense have no quarms with ticking what they see to be the hard climbing.
Personally I always like to top out or do all the obvious moves etc.. before I know I've done the problem (or tick it if you will)
each to their own
yes its high, scrittly and dangerous, but thats half the fun sometimes

[dave]

Didn't this happen to a certain regular poster on here, on Chimes at the Tor???!!

If the rumour is true, I heard the caller of the Lime said he could have it?..........

when you say "this" you need to be more specific. A certain regular poster didn't get to a jug above which is eaisier climbing, fall off on the easy climbing and take the tick for the route which finished higher than he fell. neither did a certain regular poster miss out any starting moves.

a certain regular poster did get to the jug at the end of an essentially unnamed and unlisted popular short version of a longer route, a non-tick anyway, (as opposed to Chimes Of Freedom, the "full" route, which he never attempted), and hung there on that soaking wet jug for 5 minutes (that being an actual 5 minutes, not a figure of speach) trying to get a quickdraw into the bolt a few feet above and to clip it, and fell off in the process.

[Andy Harris]

Chimes is a bit unique in that it has a complex history. Originally it was climbed as Chimes of Freedom traversing left in the top scoop.

The shorter version to the bolt above the lip “chimes” became a work out route especially when combined with the weedkiller traverse. There was no value in continuing as the power endurance benefit had been taken.

The original COF had a particularly nasty finishing move leftwards which lots of people didn’t like and somebody rebolted an alternative finish with easier moves but slightly longer. Ste Mac then added the further extension.

Funnily enough until a few years ago I had only climbed chimes & the weedkiller extension. I had never considered I’d climbed COF as I’d never got to the higher belay. I opted for the original finish as to me that’s COF whereas the right hand finish is a kind of COF 2.

So I guess a-b varies depending on whether you’re climbing chimes, COF, COF 2 or the extension.

As for whether you need to clip a  last bolt / belay to take a tick. As far as I know there are no rules that say you have to clip a belay / bolt / set up a  belay on a trad route to complete a climb. You can jump off as people do even though I would normally reserve this for steep routes. As long as you top out or are on the final hold in control. Now that doesn’t mean you can slap the final jug hold it for 0.5seconds and claim the tick. You should get the final holds, hold them in control (that’s the personal unquantifiable bit).

Specifically on chimes, if you match the jugs it’s ticked. I normally jump off from here is as it’s easier than clipping, lowering off and stripping the kit or setting it up for another lap.

On something like Caviar you've done the route when you're stood on the shelf not on the jugs below, clip or don't clip the belay. Same for most Rubicon routes as they finsih on a ledge. Now when people start to extend belays so they can clip from lower moves and take the tick without getting to the finishing holds that's dubious.

[Kingy]

The original COF had a particularly nasty finishing move leftwards which lots of people didn’t like and somebody rebolted an alternative finish with easier moves but slightly longer.

I was under the impression that holds snapped on this original leftwards finish rendering it much harder (ppl used to say it was up to 8b) and that was one of the reasons why the alternative finish was bolted. Certainly when I did Short Chimes in 2002, ppl were saying that the top wall was now 'impossible' due to broken holds (this is before the alternative finish was conceived).

[north_country_boy]

Interesting History about COF.

Not sure I agree with the A-B finish being unclear, hard section, big jugs, clip chain, lower off. Each to their own I suppose regarding clipping the chains..... I'm sure ,like with Desperate, there are people on either side of the fence...

I suppose the bigger issue with it is people not clipping the third bolt en-route...

[Kingy]

I suppose the bigger issue with it is people not clipping the third bolt en-route...

Oh no, not that old chesnut! I won't be losing any sleep... 

[dave]

on short chimes if you're not clipping the third bolt then its not a lead really, its a toprope except for the last 4 moves. Its not a hard clip anyway. I don't know how i'd feel on COF with the 3rd bolt clipped, since you've still got to clip half a dozen bolts afterwards, maybe its less of an issue.

the "rule", if you can call it that, which i always understood on peak limestone is that generally having the first 2 bolts clipped on a redpoint was fair game, unless there were no other bolts to clip afterwards (i.e. you wouldn't no salar or TOTBB with both bolts clipped). There's also the issue of some bolts not being meant for the lead, working bolts etc. and also routes like caviar where as far as I understand the position of the original 1st bolt is roughly where the second bolt is now, and the current first bolt is for working (pre-mat days?), hence most people have the first 2 (or just the second) bolt clipped on caviar.

[Kingy]

I agree with what you say Dave apart from:

the "rule", if you can call it that, which i always understood on peak limestone is that generally having the first 2 bolts clipped on a redpoint was fair game, unless there were no other bolts to clip afterwards (i.e. you wouldn't no salar or TOTBB with both bolts clipped).

I don't think there is any special 'rule' for peak limestone. Anywhere in the world, if you pre-clip a bolt that you would not be capable of downclimbing from then you are not doing a valid ascent, whether its the 2nd or 5th. I don't see the logic in not permitting the 2nd to be clipped if there are only 2 bolts on the route. Why is this not allowed? The fact that you only have the belay to clip is surely a non-issue, who cares if you didn't actually clip any bolts on lead as long as you are capable of downclimbing from the highest one?

There's also the issue of some bolts not being meant for the lead, working bolts etc. and also routes like caviar where as far as I understand the position of the original 1st bolt is roughly where the second bolt is now, and the current first bolt is for working (pre-mat days?), hence most people have the first 2 (or just the second) bolt clipped on caviar.

If a bolt is a working bolt/ not meant for lead, there is no special rule I don't think. If you can't downclimb from it, don't have it pre-clipped, its as simple as that. With Caviar, having the 2nd pre-clipped is allowed as if you are capable of getting up there, then surely you can reverse a couple of moves and jump off.

[JohnM]

I heard a rule (possibly adopted in the Frankenjura) that you can clip the first two bolts on a red point attempt if you have prooved previousley that you have the physical capability of clipping that second bolt on lead!  As for reaching the top of a sport route I have always tried to clip the lower off in control before being taken on the rope.  I took this self applied rule too far the other day desperately trying to clip a second quick draw in control while shaking and seriousley pumped before being taken on the rope.  This seems a bit silly in hindsight! 

[dave]

I agree with what you say Dave apart from:

the "rule", if you can call it that, which i always understood on peak limestone is that generally having the first 2 bolts clipped on a redpoint was fair game, unless there were no other bolts to clip afterwards (i.e. you wouldn't no salar or TOTBB with both bolts clipped).

I don't think there is any special 'rule' for peak limestone. Anywhere in the world, if you pre-clip a bolt that you would not be capable of downclimbing from then you are not doing a valid ascent, whether its the 2nd or 5th. I don't see the logic in not permitting the 2nd to be clipped if there are only 2 bolts on the route. Why is this not allowed? The fact that you only have the belay to clip is surely a non-issue, who cares if you didn't actually clip any bolts on lead as long as you are capable of downclimbing from the highest one?

There's also the issue of some bolts not being meant for the lead, working bolts etc. and also routes like caviar where as far as I understand the position of the original 1st bolt is roughly where the second bolt is now, and the current first bolt is for working (pre-mat days?), hence most people have the first 2 (or just the second) bolt clipped on caviar.

If a bolt is a working bolt/ not meant for lead, there is no special rule I don't think. If you can't downclimb from it, don't have it pre-clipped, its as simple as that. With Caviar, having the 2nd pre-clipped is allowed as if you are capable of getting up there, then surely you can reverse a couple of moves and jump off.

ted, a few years ago I was just getting into trying to do some harder sport routes, I had worked This Is The Sea at the cornice. Rupert was belaying me and I was wondering wether it was kosher to have the first 2 bolts clipped as they are very close together, ru said "you can tell you've not done many peak sport routes if you're worried about having 2 bolts clipped".

And another example ted, say you've got a route where clipping the first bolt is impossible but since its the first bolt it doens't matter, since everyone has it clipped. so you're about to go for the redpoint and I turn up one day and decide I would like a lower "working" bolt in, so place one. Now the impossible clip is now the second bolt on the route, which given your logic you have to clip on the lead if you want the tick. I hope this example illustrates how your stance on this is a bit at odds with reality - next you'll be saying that you've got to clip every bolt on the line to tick the route! I've also got photos of you trying caviar with the first 2 bolts clipped, i don't remember you doing any downclimbing for posterity.....

Also, downclimbing a few moves and jumping off isn't the same as downclimbing. technically it'd be possible to jump off and survive from the 3rd of 4th bolt of caviar, but that doesn't mean that if you do so you can lead it with all the first 3/4 bolts clipped.

and lets not forget that there's a bg difference between being theoretically able to downclimb from a point, and being able to actually downclimb from that point and still being able to make a sucessful lead in the same session.

[Kingy]

OK perhaps I am not quite as familiar with the micro-ethics of peak limestone as you. I'll take your word for that. I didn't intend to downclimb Caviar start on that day or any other, I would rather do more useful things like maybe another route on the same day. I reckon there might be a lot of people who did not do the Mecca downclimb from the second bolt on the day they redpointed it so I don't think it is an essential thing, in fact I have never heard of anybody doing the Mecca downclimb or seen it done but I have seen a lot of redpoints attempts of this route! I respect people who do the downclimb though. Its each to their own really, as long as we say what we have done.

I intend to try Waddage with only the second preclipped to rectify when I had the third pre-clipped on Chimes which is a flawed ascent according to our ethical code. That's what everybody trying the route at the time was doing and what I was told to do in 2002 but I appreciate that people climb it differently and more ethically now. Anyway, congrats on your baby dude. See you at Rubbercon again no doubt!

[ferret]

as pointed out you can comfortably bridge the groove at the top of desperate, hence its very easy to brush some chalk into the holds. i found once i did this that the scrittle was easily removed and the climbing was very easy (v3ish?) only a tiny bit of effort to complete a truly beautiful line which imho obviously finishes at the top