[Johnny Brown]

I don't think the 'but so-and-so tried it and didn't' factor is reliable or useful as a rule. I've done a couple of things in the past that 'no-one else could do' so I allowed them bigger grades than I thought they deserved. Time has proven my original instincts correct.

Naturally then symmetry demands that the "I've/so-and-so has done it and can't climb 8a, so it can't be 8a" argument that you just used on westworld is similar bollocks. Honestly, do people pay no attention to logical equivalence?

Logical equivalence is it? So you honestly believe failing on a problem is always as good a perspective on its difficulty as doing it? Utter tripe.

The problem with the font grade is in its attempt at precision it abandons accuracy. For those of you that studied arts, that means the grade bands are too narrow to ever achieve consensus.

[jwi]

The problem with the font grade is in its attempt at precision it abandons accuracy. For those of you that studied arts, that means the grade bands are too narrow to ever achieve consensus.

Amen.  And it is so easy to fix. If we just got rid of those silly +'s it would be a fine system. 7a and 7a+, who can honestly tell the difference? I think the +s are quite new too, introduced like 30 years ago?

[dave]

and famous grouse 

We thought this was nails until Newman unlocked the magic beta.. Don't put LF in break, put left heel on first left hand sloper instead (with LH on sloper 2, RH on arete), move LH to 3rd sloper, RH bounces up to arete at break (RF pressing against LHS of scooped wall for this), cut loose and put RF on over lip, LF back on 1st sloper, et voila now it's all a million grades easier. Putting heel on is awkward but makes everything after easier and less scary.

there's about 1000 different bits of "magic beta" for this problem depending who you speak to, believe me i tried them all. Generally guaranteed not to work for you unless you're exactly the same body size/shape as the guy giving you the beta, with exactly the same strengths, skin, number of spotters, boldness, and conditions. This is why this is such a bogey problem for people.

[Doylo]

The sensible option would probably be to regrade John's problems as they're repeated (if needed; as easier sequences often keep the same grade) and to keep everything else as normal (which means in a few years someone (atleast as strong as Tyler) might manage to do all the moves on Shadowplay or Il Pirata and give it the grade it deserves. That way i might stop altering all the other grades of problems i do, which then should stop screwing with the minds of other people who repeat them. That hasn't happened as of yet and probably needs more consensus, which i guess is why i've been keen on expressing my 'modest' opinions on alot of problems i've done since getting stuck into some of John's stuff.

Carlisle i don't think you should grade your problems based on the Gee's problems. Your doing important first ascents, repeats and second ascents and its gonna cock grading up in this country using jonny grades. As much as i love jonny some of his grading is out (i.e. not in line with the known universe). I don't blame john after all he could pull on anything but this didn't help his grading. You mentioned the pill box, graded 8a+/b and done in two hours. I genuinely think this would be 8c in USA and Swiss and many other places. Underground british 8b+ climber has told me that compared to the 8cs he has tried Shadowplay is 9a. Personally i don't believe that the whole world is wrong and Jonny is right. Jonnys problems themselves need to be re-assessed when repeated and tried by beasts like yourself.

[Jaspersharpe]

Absolutely spot on Doylo.

These problems are there to be attempted and eventually repeated by the young beasts coming through. When they are they should be regraded according to their difficulty with reference to everything else rather than using them as the benchmark and regrading everything in the World! John got enough stick giving things the grades that he did without causing any more controversy by claiming 8C+ when the rest of the World was three grades behind. He was obviously being conservative.

In the case of Shadowplay though, was there not some doubt as to whether this was actually an elaborate joke as "fuck you" to MB? I'm sure I remember reading this somewhere but the wank Search function isn't bringing anything up. I know Clamping Arthur said he thought it looked not like the hardest problem in the World but physically impossible (and this is in comparison to John's other problems). Someone must know.