[The Sausage]

Serpico's post raises 2 issues, both of which are interesting:

1) the issue of the antagonist lengthening during agonist contraction. Now, this is not something that I have read about, but i have observed it in myself, and would be interested to know what other people think: If you have any instability in your shoulder, all of the muscles that act across the joint will attempt to stabilise. One of the heads of triceps crosses behind the gleno-humeral joint - and as such I think that the triceps will be activated to try and stabilise the shoulder. Now, imagine you are trying to do 1-4-7 on a campus board (who? me? 1-4-7? never tried it...) you catch the 4th rung with your left. Shoulder stabilisers ned to be fully engaged, but they don't really work, causing a generalised contration of all the muscles around the shoulder. Including triceps. Now, to pull through to 7, you need to flex the elbow. but your triceps are busy stabilising the shoulder (you can't contract only part of the muscle), so there is increased tension in the triceps, and elbow flexion becomes nigh in impossble. Now, i know muscles can contract and lengthen at the same time (the quads do it everytime you sit down), but that almost always happens wth gravity, not against it.

2) The issue of the runners' hamstring injury is caused by the FACT that the hamstrings contract very quickly to pull the foot back through after the 'drive' phase of running gait. Interestingly, the hamstrings also contract (in walking and running) just before the foot is put back on the floor out in front of you to prevent repetitive hyperextension of the knee, and allow a much more controlled foot placement, (try walking with just 'flicking' your leg through. This is alluded to in Serpico's post about the biceps providing 'braking' at the end of the javelin throw. For Javelin throwers, the rotator cuff provides braking for the forward movement of the humerus too, and they get a lot of problems with this.

Ultimately, I don't think very much thought/research has ever gone into climbers' injuries. I sometimes feel I am mounting a one man crusade against the blanket diagnoses of golfers'/tennis elbow and the general view that tendonitis is the root of all evil. I am always interested in talking to people face to face about their injuries as I think there is a growing need for some climbing specific physiotherapy. I don't think i'm nearly experienced enough to dole out anything more than advice at present, but will happily do so provided I get feedback about how well/badly it went.

Three-nine, i'm glad your elbows are feeling better. That was a bit of a throwaway comment about bench presses. I think general conditioning through weights is a very important part of training for climbing. If only we ahd more time...

ps, you may have guessed i'm not at work this week. or next week. or the week after. YYFY!!!

[Jaspersharpe]

ps, you may have guessed i'm not at work this week. or next week. or the week after. YYFY!!!

You total bastard. You better get something hard done or I'm puntering you!

[The Sausage]

I managed the crux of nasty traverse (at minus 10) 4 times yesterday! (does that count?) the rest of it was wet. A move I previously thought of as impossible. Come on Jerry!

[Fiend]

I am always interested in talking to people face to face about their injuries as I think there is a growing need for some climbing specific physiotherapy. I don't think i'm nearly experienced enough to dole out anything more than advice at present, but will happily do so provided I get feedback about how well/badly it went.

YHPM 

[Serpico]

Now, to pull through to 7, you need to flex the elbow. but your triceps are busy stabilising the shoulder (you can't contract only part of the muscle), so there is increased tension in the triceps, and elbow flexion becomes nigh in impossble. Now, i know muscles can contract and lengthen at the same time (the quads do it everytime you sit down), but that almost always happens wth gravity, not against it.

In terms of how many muscle fibres you recruit it is possible to contract only part of the muscle, but the fibres that are recruited will contract fully along their entire length generating force across each joint as in your scenario. What makes the difference to where movement takes place is the ratio of tricep to other muscle activation (just like in the example you gave of wrist flexion), and I think that for most climbers bicep, BR and lat strength is such that even if the long head of the tricep was fully activated joint flexion at the elbow would still happen.
Also when you've caught rung 4 with your left, your right tricep long head is going to be contracting to pull the arm towards the ribcage, which is at odds with the view espoused by Horst (and others) that 'the pushing muscles' are antagonists and don't get used in climbing. I don't think that there are any antagonists in climbing, only antagonists for some specific movements, and that relationship is often reversed on the next move.
Vaguely back on the OP's OT I think that if you're going to add in supplemental conditioning for climbing it should be whole body conditioning focusing on multi joint exercises - body building isolation exercises are useless for anything other than addressing very specific weaknesses.
I have 3 basic routines which I do at different times of the year after climbing:
Preparatory phase:
Dumbbell complexes.
http://www.istvanjavorek.com/page2.html
I do DB's 1 and 3, typically 3 sets. Followed by some pull ups/ cable lat pulls (pull bar to chest, never behind the neck).
Demo here:

Nb: the above demo shows lunges instead of dumbbell kickbacks - I'd stick with the kickbacks.

Training phase medium:
8-10 reps
Dumbbell squats 1-2 sets
DB stiff legged deadlifts 1-2 sets
DB upright rows 2-3 sets
DB bent over row (arms out to side) 2-3 sets
DB chest press on Swiss ball ( don't lower the DB's so that the upper arms go past parallel with the floor to avoid stressing the shoulders) 2-3 sets
DB overhead press (don't lower DB's behind the neck) 2-3 sets
Pullups/cable lat pull downs 2-3 sets

Heavy phase:
This is still a work in progress... but so far:
Deadlifts ~6 reps 3-4 sets
One arm DB snatch 6 reps 3-4 sets
Weighted pull ups

Add in some fingerboard, a core routine, and some specials to address some particular weaknesses (reverse wrist curls, tricep extensions and hammer curls for me).
Take 3 times a week after climbing, dropping any exercise that feels like it's targeting muscles that have been tired already at the crag.

[abarro81]

Similarly, I don't understand half of the above posts, but i've been doing the theraband stuff for shoulder stablisation which the sausage mentioned to me at the works early in the autumn. My elbows haven't given me any real problems this winter (unlike last winter when they were a bit screwed)

[Caesar Power]

Just found this thread and a lot of this information is 24 carrot gold-dust.

Was diagnosed last night with winging in my left scapula. Apparently my (weak/can't be arsed) Rhomboids are letting the scapula drift out too far, putting too much pressure on my infraspinatus (one of the rotator cuff muscles). Even though I was doing rotator cuff exercises, they were never going to help without the scapula being in the right position (down and level with spine).
Since last night I've being walking around less like an ape and more like C3P0. I've just now done my first pullup in a month with zero pain 

Am I right in thinking the scapula stabilisers look after the position of your scapular, which in turn looks after the position of the rotator cuffs, which in turn look after the shoulder joint

Any clues on these boring exercises for serratus anterior + middle/lower traps?

[The Sausage]

Hi CP...
...the thorny subject of scapula stabilisation exercises. You're pretty spot on in what you say - basically that the position of the scapula is crucial in terms of shoulder movement/function. Have you seen (either as a model or some sort of 3D imagery) what a scapula looks like, and how the 'socket' for the head of humerus (the glenoid) is attached? The shoulder complex is an amazing piece of engineering - the scapula basically floats on the thorax - its only bony attachment is via the clavicle, which attaches into the top of the sternum. That set up allows a huge range of movement, but it is destined to result in instability a lot of the time.

One of the problems that results in winging scapula, is that the rhomboids, far from being lazy, are in fact over-active. However, they aren't actually designed to stabilise the scapula. As the scapula moves away from the spine, they lengthen, and aren't able to control the inner edge of the scapula.

Again, as you rightly say, you need to engage your middle/lower traps and serratus anterior. These muscles are not easy to isolate. Also your brain has very little awareness of where your scapulae are, so it is very difficult to monitor whether you are doing the exercises correctly. It is easy to just engage your more active muscles (rhomboids, pecs, lats), which is obviously not what you want to do.

You need to be taught these exercises, and have them monitored and progressed until you are defnitely doing them correctly and effectively.

Who diagnosed your winging scapula? did they show you the traps/serratus exercises?

[a dense loner]

abarro81 you say your elbows haven't given you as many problems this winter as last, however last winter you were down the wall all the time, this winter you haven't been (seen, plus we're only a couple of mths into the winter season). i don't think this is a realistic assessment of the theraband treatment, not to say that it doesn't work. you may actually be too tall for it to work

[Stubbs]

You can only see the side of the campus board when you're hanging off the beastmaker, not surprising you missed him

[a dense loner]

thanks to one of dobbins programs my phone is notified whenever someone tall walks into the works

[Caesar Power]

Hey Sausage, thanks for getting back...

I wasn't given any exercises to do, just told to carry on as normal with better posture! Had a training session the other day, and now my lower/mid traps are wrecking due to forcing my scapulae down all throughout my session! The pain is about 1 inch from my spine, starting just level with my armpit going 7inch down. Think I overdid it as far as the traps are concerned. At least my usual spot (behind left armpit) didn't hurt during the session. ...However that does hurt more now! so 1 step forward, 2 back

I'm now convinced it's not rhomboids. I've realised that I actually do exercices that pretty much target these muscles.
I'm more convinced that it's this serratus anterior that I've never heard of. I believe things like overhead shrugs and woodchoppers target them. I tried woodchoppers the other day and it seemed way harder than I thought it would be, which makes me suspicious...

[The Sausage]

abarro81 you say your elbows haven't given you as many problems this winter as last, however last winter you were down the wall all the time, this winter you haven't been (seen, plus we're only a couple of mths into the winter season). i don't think this is a realistic assessment of the theraband treatment, not to say that it doesn't work. you may actually be too tall for it to work

you need to read the date he posted Dense... it WAS last winter

[a dense loner]

oh my god i'm a mong. i thought it was a new thread. then that is a realistic assessment of the theraband treatment since he was at the wall all the time. everybody to the therabands

[duncan]

I'm more convinced that it's this serratus anterior that I've never heard of. I believe things like overhead shrugs and woodchoppers target them. I tried woodchoppers the other day and it seemed way harder than I thought it would be, which makes me suspicious...

Side-planks, press-ups and 2-point kneeling can all potentially work serratus, although none of these exercises are very specific to climbing.  As Sausage says though, it's hard to target this muscle without someone else telling you whether you're 'cheating', at least to start with.  Using two mirrors so you can see when your scapula is starting to wing or elevate can be helpful.

[pppat]

 
Antagonists the basics= Press ups and manual labour

All you need to know

[The Sausage]

I mentioned this in my original post, but it's important to get away from the idea of agonists and antagonists. Muscles work synergistically. They can be divided into 'movement' and 'postural' muscles - the postural muscles stabilising the joint while the movement muscles move the limb.

Problems arise because the movement muscles are easier to activate than postural muscles, and much easier to target. The problem with any strenuous exercises - such as wood chopping, manual labour, press-ups, shoulder shrugs - is that if your postural muscles don't really work well, your movement muscles will try to move and stabilise the joint simultaneously. This will be ineffective in stabilising the joint in the outer ranges of available movement, and (crucially) will provide large amounts of resistance to the movement you are trying to achieve.

Postural muscles (such as serratus anterior, middle/lower traps, sub-scapularis, infraspinatous & teres minor) need to (initially) be activated and learned as a very low level contraction - this will enable them to work without the movement muscles (pecs, lats, rhomboids, triceps) taking over.

[Caesar Power]

Is it actually possible to isolate these mythical serratus anterior muscles and feel them doing their job without other, bigger muscles taking over?
I just don't get how you can learn to use it. I can move my shoulder joint up, down, backwards and forwards, but I believe yet again, this is just other muscles.
I've recently started doing scapular pushups and after 3 sets the whole upper back area feels great. However I get the impression it could be doing more harm than good if my scapular is still going for a walk during this exercise.

[SA Chris]

I'm no expert, but I find a theraband pretty useful for targetting specific muscles. I think this is because, unlike weigths where gravity is the resistive force and (usually) acts in the same direction, you can use a theraband to get resistance in just about any plane of movemement. Could be bollocks though.

[Caesar Power]

yeah, I've thought that. Doing the external rotation exercise for rotator cuff with weights hits the muscle most when the arm is less rotated, but with bands you feel it more when the arm is most externally rotated. Which is best? Probably a combination of both at a guess.

[duncan]

Is it actually possible to isolate these mythical serratus anterior muscles and feel them doing their job without other, bigger muscles taking over?

Undoubtedly possible.  Difficult without someone else giving feedback. 

You can try feeling for serratus in the space under your armpit in front of latissimus and behind pecs major:


Do a single-arm press-up against a wall whilst feeling for a contraction (ie muscle swells slightly) in serratus with the non-pushing hand.  Pecs and lats. should stay fairly quiet and relaxed.   To start with, you may only be able to push very slightly before pecs. starts to join in.

LIke this only one handed:


Someone else should be monitoring and teaching this, it's pretty hard to describe and harder to accomplish.

 

[Caesar Power]

Found the little critters! If you put your elbow behind your head they stand out. Look like ribs, but aren't actually in line with the proper ribs.
Doing the above exercise with straight arms (just shrugging at the shoulder joint) really works them.
Thanks a bunch!

[The Sausage]

The thing about exercising your postural muscles is that you aren't trying to get any movement. Correct activation will feel like you are creating tension, which is exactly what you are doing.

The fibres in movement muscles are arranged longitudinally - in series. Contraction produces large amounts of shortening of muscle length, and therefore large amounts of movement. Postural muscle fibres are arranged in parallel (sometimes in a kind of chevron arrangement I think) - contraction produces almost no movement, but creates a tension across the points of muscular insertion.

so, yes, it is possible to isolate these muscles, but initially 'activation' is only what what you are looking for; you need to be able to feel and voluntarily produce the contraction without other muscles working. But it is difficult, and without feedback from someone who knows what to look for, and can spot compensations from other muscles, i'd be very surprised if anyone can isolate these muscles effectively.

Another point to note is that because of the fibre arrangement, the postural muscles are very sensitive to position. Basically, if you don't have correct alignment at the joint you are trying to stabilise, the postural muscles aren't going to work. Therefore, activation of postural muscles must be preceeded by postural education and correct alignment. Again, you're going to need somebody who knows what they are talking about to guide you.

[account_inactive]

Huffy gave me the 'push up against a wall' exercise for the same recruitment problem.  I can't see how doing this one armed would be any better than two.  After a few sessions of this I was aware of serratus anterior firing and then moved on to theraband work.

Only the cool (injured) kids use a theraband

[The Sausage]

have just tried the push up against a wall thing. Doing it 1-armed forces your shoulder stabilisers to work - the thing is that you have to make sure you are not twisting into or out of the movement, but keeping yourself parallel with the wall. It's also important not to arch your back.

A good starter exercise is to get down onto hands and knees, again make sure your lower back isn't too arched, lift one arm in front of you, but making sure that side of your body doesn't drop at all.