[SA Chris]

I find the most inspiring lines the ones that hint at a suggestion of possibility when the features are all long gone. A few potential edges or a vague ripple after the features run out. Like Thing on a Spring, or the Scoop Pitch on The Hammer.

[Sloper]

For example, I did a problem at the Roaches 'a modest proposal' on a warm day with showers of drizzle and thought V4/5 was appropriate, this is now in the bouldering guide at Font 7a (so V6/7?) I was at least a grade out as I didn't think I was climbing well when I did it and conditions were crap.  

Yor undergrading was due to the superb spotting and beta giving abilities of your spotting team. No-one who has done it since has had such a great advantage.

I remember your beta was something like 'pull harder'....

[SA Chris]

Hell, it worked!

[Neil F]

Yeah, stop Tor bashing Adam, perhaps we just need to foster your talent and nuture your relationship so that you too can enjoy the summer.

To be fair, Adam was smiling as he Tor-bashed!

Anyway, unlike the gritmeister, I am really rather fond of my local heap of occasionally tottering, seepy limestone. But does it actually have lines?  He may not have been there,  but I think JB is actually right!  The only lines I can think of, from R to L, are these:-

PUTP (given that it follows a vague natural feature)
Little Extra
Mecca
Revelations
Top half of Prow
That E4 6b groove over on the left, which is now completely covered in ivy.

Definitely not lines:-
Toilet
Sardine
Chimes
Indecent
Crucifixion
etc.

(Though some of these are quite good, allegedly)

Oh, and of course the Tor does have one of the finest natural lines on Peak Limestone - the late, lamented Cream Team Special.


Now, isn't that more fun than debating whether one of the best looking new routes climbed in the UK in the last decade is E8, 9, 10, 11, 12 or 13?

Neil

[Nigel]

I don't think anyone is 'defaming' James as a climber, more the publicity resulting from claiming the hardest route in the uk, ever. That has backfired badly, though may not have been entirely his wish or making, who knows. I'm sure he is currently understanding why so many high profile climbers go through a stage of not grading their stuff other than to offer a 'hardest I've done yet'. Let the chattering classes decide...

Sorry, back on topic! I sense a lot of wilful avoidance of frank discussion here, similar to The Groove & The Promise.

Adam makes what I feel is the most important point. That is, that irrespective of the frankly meaningless E9 vs E12 armchair debate there is the matter of "World's Hardest Traditional Route" (http://www.climbmagazine.com/PearsonWorldsHardestTradRoute.aspx) vs "Scottishman's short break to Devon". Now I know that MacLeod is shit-hot but even so I would hardly have expected him to repeat genuinely the world's hardest route in three days, carrying an injury and proclaiming to not suit the style. Especially given his protracted battles with his own (easier?) routes. It is this side of things, over and above the grade, where things don't stack up. The media presented this route as making huge leaps forward in every aspect of rock climbing skill and boldness, part of a new generation of peerless super routes. It would appear that it is of a similar difficulty to some routes done in the late '80's and early '90's.

There is a bit of a tendency to gloss over all this with platitudes lauding the quality of the route. As far as I'm concerned that sort of thing goes without saying, just look at the pictures, you can tell its absolutely amazing. But the fact is that the media i.e. Climb magazine was guilty of selling faulty goods. I strongly suspect that the blame lies more at their door than with James. Letting it slide because the route is awesome and the FA is a nice chap is hardly holding them to account! That said I don't read or buy mags these days so this is more of a principled objection than a practical one.

[SA Chris]

That said I don't read or buy mags these days so this is more of a principled objection than a practical one.

Therein possibly lies the rub? A lot less people buy the mags for news these days, hence perhaps they need to sensationalise ascents and bandy about big numbers such as this in order to shift copy? Maybe the guilt lies firmly with us? Just a thought.

[Drew]

Brad Pitt was 8a+/8b(?) originally. It's now often considered 7c!

Bad example - a new sequence was found and its now climbed a totally different way.

Actually I think that's a perfect example, a new sequence, finding a new hold all radically change the grade but don't invalidate the 'correctness' of the initial proposition.

Sloper understands!

Just because something isn't your style and you found it hard, doesn't mean you take an inflated grade for it....???!!!!

I think Sloper's point is that James graded it for how hard it felt. It felt like it deserved E12. He didn't give inflate the grade. It's just that it's not his strength.

[Danny]

Brad Pitt was 8a+/8b(?) originally. It's now often considered 7c!

Bad example - a new sequence was found and its now climbed a totally different way.

Actually I think that's a perfect example, a new sequence, finding a new hold all radically change the grade but don't invalidate the 'correctness' of the initial proposition.

Sloper understands!

Just because something isn't your style and you found it hard, doesn't mean you take an inflated grade for it....???!!!!

I think Sloper's point is that James graded it for how hard it felt. It felt like it deserved E12. He didn't give inflate the grade. It's just that it's not his strength.

Come on, I mean  James comes accross as a nice bloke, talented climber, and the rest, but he clearly couldn’t grade a sausage (unlike me, I just coudn’t climb one). I mean E12, what the chuff does that mean anyway? He’s in grading lala land, and anyone who thinks otherwise is there with him. 
I think it’s important to qualify that this issue is really a footnote to the main event –which is getting out and going climbing lots, and fair play to JP and DMC for doing so at the top end. A lot.
My main gripe is with the state of the magazines these days, especially climb, which has about as much style and substance as a cheap brick. Loved the old OTE mimimalist front covers, the only thing like that today is Summit.  Also, I think the Americans do a much better job with Rock and Ice and Climbing. Where are we going wrong?

[mrjonathanr]

Great effort of Pearson for establishing the route and Macleod for repeating it. Inspires me to push that little bit harder.

And Vickers? Did I miss something?

[mrjonathanr]

Did somebody say here, or on UKC, that climbers at this level should have to do Indian Face before they should be allowed to give higher grades? I don't think this it true, as IF is clearly utterly horrendous (it seems like the three climbers who tried it almost accepted they might die. Is this right

I was with Johnny that day, in fact my crappy camera was the only one at the crag that day- the other photos were staged.
I thought he might die. Even more concerning, I thought he might land on me. It looked horrific.

[Oli]

I was with Johnny that day, in fact my crappy camera was the only one at the crag that day- the other photos were staged.
I thought he might die. Even more concerning, I thought he might land on me. It looked horrific.

Fucking hell, you get around a bit 

Sounds horrific!

[richdraws]

It looks to me that James P does not enjoy climbing trad, his interviews are filled with talk of nightmares and sleepless nights and films of him climbing are scary to watch he seldom looks in control of his nerves. Maybe he does it more for a personal challenge to get over his fear? Also he certainly has climbed less hard trad than many other climbers who have not reached/claimed e10 let alone e11. Its possible James P did over grade his problems for publicity and personal gain however I think its more likely that he did it mistakenly. His peer group, many of whom are UKB members who often make the most interesting and insightful comments, have perhaps failed to question his experience to allow him to claim e12. If mistakes have been made I don't think they were made in a vacuum, James P is clearly an amazing climber though he may have been let down by a obsequious peer group and a very culpable hotaches team and climbing media?

 However Dave M seems to relish his climbing and seemingly approaches his climbs more thoughtfully, he rarely looks out of control possibly because of his meticulous planning. Though he let the E11 grade claim to come from the media whilst keeping his reputation clean, maybe this was done slightly cynically much in the way he writes about having just climbed James P's 'hardest ever trad route'.

Je nais pas pissed.

[mrjonathanr]

I was with Johnny that day, in fact my crappy camera was the only one at the crag that day- the other photos were staged.
I thought he might die. Even more concerning, I thought he might land on me. It looked horrific.

Fucking hell, you get around a bit 

Sounds horrific!

Oh yes, I'm an old fart really! (Dodgy elbows at mo BTW otherwise would be arranging some climbing.)
Quite an impressive sight really (Johnny's route, not my elbows). He went for it in the end, and you can tell when someone's totally committed and at their limit. Also stressful as you really don't want to see someone land at your feet .. Never seen commitment like that, before or since.

In respect of JP, without knowing the guy it seems more likely that without a great deal of routing experience to draw on he should grade quite subjectively, rather than cynically. The more experience, the easier it is to separate the absolute difficulty from the subjective experience of the occasion, surely?

[JohnM]

It just appears that James must be much better at climbing than he is at grading!  Its not just the E grade he applied to his experience on a route that has been out some of 'tech' grades are way out as well such as The Promise, 8a down to 7b/7b+.  If that is in fact the difficulty of this route is doable by a lot of people.  He also gave a new boulder problem in Wales 8a and it turned out to be about 7A+ which is a massive difference!

[Fiend]

Its possible James P did over grade his problems for publicity and personal gain however I think its more likely that he did it mistakenly.

Well exactly. Deliberate over-grading or mistaken mis-grading?? To me it is simpler and more sensible to assume the latter, people simply get things wrong.

Never attribute to malice what is more readily explained by ignorance etc etc.

[Nigel]

Further to my last reply, I've re-read DM's blog post. As I read it he too seemed sold on the idea of this being the hardest route in the world:

Last Autumn James Pearson made an inspired first ascent of The Walk of Life.......By giving his new route the gobsmackingly high grade of E12 7a, James made a strong statement that he felt he had broken into an entirely new level of world class rock climbing. I couldn’t wait to try the climb and find out just how impossibly difficult an E12 would be.......But although the grade indicated it was the hardest climb in the world, it was still a slab, and even if I could just do a few moves on it, it would be inspiring and good learning for me, but not too stressful on my elbow.

That tallies with my previous understanding. How was it possible for the route to be presented in this way?

[slackline]

Further to my last reply, I've re-read DM's blog post. As I read it he too seemed sold on the idea of this being the hardest route in the world:

Last Autumn James Pearson made an inspired first ascent of The Walk of Life.......By giving his new route the gobsmackingly high grade of E12 7a, James made a strong statement that he felt he had broken into an entirely new level of world class rock climbing. I couldn’t wait to try the climb and find out just how impossibly difficult an E12 would be.......But although the grade indicated it was the hardest climb in the world, it was still a slab, and even if I could just do a few moves on it, it would be inspiring and good learning for me, but not too stressful on my elbow.

That tallies with my previous understanding. How was it possible for the route to be presented in this way?

May I suggest you re-read the whole article as I think you've mis-interpreted this.

These are Dave's comments on the route at the start of the thread thus chronologically they preceed his ascent and are based on the medias (Climb/D Simmonite?) reporting WOL as the hardest route in the world.  On his practise and headpoint he gained his own knowledge of the technicallity and danger involved in the route and then offered his opinion on the grade for an on-sight at the end of the article.

Quoting needs to be done in context otherwise it gives a false impression that can then be perpetuated.

[tc]

This is just more hype from DMac. Who goes on "the hardest climb in the world" carrying an injury?

[craic-head]

This is just more hype from DMac.

Actions speak louder than hype.

[tc]

I applaud his actions. It is the point he makes about being injured that I find strange.

[craic-head]

a very culpable hotaches team and climbing media?

'Culpable videocide, m' Lud?'

Hmm.

Certainly charges that could not be levelled against the 'Copley Two'.

[BD]

"Thermodynamics is a funny subject. The first time you go through it, you don't understand it at all. The second time you go through it, you think you understand it, except for one or two small points. The third time you go through it, you know you don't understand it, but by that time you are so used to it, it doesn't bother you any more. " (quote A. Sommerfeld)

Now read it again and replace thermodynamics by grading...

[Nigel]

Further to my last reply, I've re-read DM's blog post. As I read it he too seemed sold on the idea of this being the hardest route in the world:

Last Autumn James Pearson made an inspired first ascent of The Walk of Life.......By giving his new route the gobsmackingly high grade of E12 7a, James made a strong statement that he felt he had broken into an entirely new level of world class rock climbing. I couldn’t wait to try the climb and find out just how impossibly difficult an E12 would be.......But although the grade indicated it was the hardest climb in the world, it was still a slab, and even if I could just do a few moves on it, it would be inspiring and good learning for me, but not too stressful on my elbow.

That tallies with my previous understanding. How was it possible for the route to be presented in this way?

May I suggest you re-read the whole article as I think you've mis-interpreted this.

These are Dave's comments on the route at the start of the thread thus chronologically they preceed his ascent and are based on the medias (Climb/D Simmonite?) reporting WOL as the hardest route in the world.  On his practise and headpoint he gained his own knowledge of the technicallity and danger involved in the route and then offered his opinion on the grade for an on-sight at the end of the article.

Quoting needs to be done in context otherwise it gives a false impression that can then be perpetuated.

Sorry my good man, I think you've mis-interpreted me! Perhaps I should have said "How was it possible that the route was presented in this way by the media in the first place?"

Really I was using DM's quotes to demonstrate that this prior to his repeat then the (widely held) perception was that this was the hardest route in the world. So given your first sentence we actually agree on this. This understood, then the rest of your post is irrelevant.

I admit it was a roundabout way of trying to raise a bit of useful discussion. Perhaps a direct question is better: how is it that a route can be claimed and publicised as far and away the hardest thing since sliced bread when it isn't? And yes I do think its useful to discuss it because otherwise what's to stop us getting a new "hardest boiled egg" every month until the end of time?

[Will Hunt]

Has this not blown over yet?
 

[Nibile]

He also gave a new boulder problem in Wales 8a and it turned out to be about 7A+ which is a massive difference!

what?